Silo Creator Hugh Howey On Season 1 And The Upcoming Season 2 (Apple+)

WEBVTT

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Voyage. Welcome to watch this tonight. I'm your host, Dan Bettimore.

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I'm a producer, writer of film
and television and now a podcast producer.

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And despite having every streaming service,
I never know what to watch. So

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anytime I watch something good, I
talk about it on this show. This

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way, you'll never have the same
problem I do. I watched this tonight.

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There's always something good to watch.
Let's get started, all right.

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Today on the show, I am
incredibly honored to welcome in writer Hugh Howie,

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who created the world of Silo.
His series of books are the basis

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of the Apple Plus series that just
had its season finale on Friday. To

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thank you so much for joining the
show. Thanks for having me that So

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first off, obviously we are going
to talk about season one of Silo.

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So if you're listening to this and
you have not yet caught up with the

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show, leave come back when you're
caught up. Yeah, there can be

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a lot of spoilers, and I
even have to give you like a spoiler

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warning for me because I've only I've
only seen the first season. I have

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not read the books. I've had
a discussion with a friend actually this weekend

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I was like all right, which
books can I read, because I'm definitely

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gonna go read them now, and
I'm going to ask you later what I

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can read without spoiling it for myself. But all I've seen is the season

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one of the show, and I
wanted to start with the foundation of the

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concept. So I thought that was
so impressive to me and got me in

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immediately. Was from a writing perspective, the cleverness of the setup that they

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don't know their own history. They're
in this silo underground. They have this

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viewing window, so it's like it
doesn't feel like anything's being hidden from them.

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Any request to leave is granted,
so you're not being kept prisoner.

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The cleaning. It's very airtight in
a way that I think often high concept

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sci fi of this sort is not
airtight like that, meaning that often there

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would be a contrivance or it's sort
of like you gotta take it just because

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the story says so that people would
go along with this. But I felt

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like the design of it I totally
bought, Like if I was there,

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I'd probably be like, yeah,
sure, it makes sense, Like I

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totally bought it, And I think
that's a real accomplishment and it's sort of

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the foundation of the whole thing.
Thanks, m Yeah, it's what happens

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when you try to base your fictional
and reality. There's enough you know,

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dystopian stuff about the way we live
and bizarre, like humans are just strange,

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and leaning into that with your fiction, you know, can send you

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some really fun, fun directions.
I had a few things in mind when

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I first came up with the idea. You know, I've always loved that

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Plato's allegory of the cave, just
the idea that we don't see the true

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shape of things, we see their
shadows and try to infer reality based on

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a very limited viewpoint. I think
that's becoming more and more true. And

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the idea that we get most of
our information about the world through our screens,

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you know, like you and I
are doing it right now, and

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we get we get all of our
news and our a lot of our more

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of our social light through our screens, which is kind of weird, and

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I think that has a psychological effect
on people. And you know, this

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is twelve years ago that I wrote
the original story. But people focus on

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the silo a lot as a as
a device in the story. But to

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me, the silo is just a
place to put people where they only had

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this one wall screen, this one
view of the world, And that to

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me was like the interesting question,
like what is that? What does it

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do to our belief and in reality
when we can't trust the things that we

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see and you know, we didn't
have like deep fakes and generative AI and

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stuff like that when the story has
written, so it's really even I think

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more Germane now than it was back
and it's in its original publishing. There's

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some psychological experiment I think it's called
like the visual cliff or something, where

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it's basically an experiment of there's a
boundary that is psychologically presented to the subject,

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but it's not a real boundary.
It's not a physical boundary. It's

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purely psychological, but they will treat
it as a real boundary essentially that we

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can it's like a learned helplessness thing. So there's a lot of this stuff

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that is certainly validated by like psychology
of human beings. It was interesting I

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was reading up about you and I
noticed that there's some I think it's on

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Wikipedia where it talks about you took
a catamaran from Cape Town to Australia.

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And then I noticed that, you
know, Silo obviously is about a group

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of people that are isolated. And
then your other property that I think is

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also becoming a TV show, Beaking
twenty three, is about a lighthouse in

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space. And it's interesting, is
that something that you've consciously registered that you've

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written a bunch of stuff about people
that are isolated. Yeah, not just

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isolation, but a lot of nautical
themed writing. You know, my first

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my first series of books was basically
as a space oper was based on my

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sailing around between islands when I was
in my twenties on a little sailboat.

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Every country, all these island countries
were just like different planets, and that

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formed the inspiration for my first series
of books. And you know, the

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Shell Collector kind of is a homage
to my love of the sea. So

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yeah, my my sailings informed my
writing, and my writing is certainly informed

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my sailing as well. Yeah,
so it was interesting you read you wrote

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a blog post recently talking about your
year and and sort of things, which

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was beautifully written by last thing just
people read it, But in that you

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sort of allude to something that you
know, anybody who works in the industry

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knows, which is that if you
are fortunate enough to have something made,

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chances are it's not going to be
good. Like the more likely outcome is

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that it would be bad. And
it seemed for meeting your blog post that

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you were fully aware of that and
and sort of you had prepared yourself that

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like, this is probably not go
like the odds are not in my favor

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that it's going to turn out great. Um, So can you talk about

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like that process of preparing yourself for
that, you know, it's it's probably

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a better way to defend your heart, really and then actually finding out that

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it's good, and what a pleasant
surprise. It's just you know, being

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realistic. If you open up rotten
Tomatoes on any given day or I am

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to be or wherever you wherever you
get your your you know, collated your

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average reviews um. More than half
the things on the page are below average.

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Um, it's hard to do something
that's even decent um. Good is

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really difficult, and great is you
know, unexpected, And you can't tell

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when you're making something where what category
you're going to end up in, Like

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being on set does it clue you
in watching dailies doesn't tell you, and

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it could even be something that you
like or I'm proud of, but the

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critics and the audience will disagree with
you. So you know, every every

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year, there's only like two or
three things that really break out and become

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get some kind of word of mouth
or hype. And I feel like almost

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every creator put something out there thinking
this will be the thing that goes gangbusters,

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And that's so wild that we're that
like misguided on I think you should

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have all the love and passion for
your art as you can, but to

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expect the world to embrace it madly
is insane. It just ignores, you

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know, our own experiences as consumers
of art. So I went into you

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know, I go into every bit
of art creation and thinking about the consumer

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side and how unlikely it is to
do something that that's a hit. So

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when it happened for me, which
is you know what happened with Silo,

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like it was the breakout thing of
the summer, there's nothing else that's really

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getting the chatter, and that's just
like you, I'd never allow myself to

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even dream of that. Um,
it's the top drama Apple has ever had.

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All these different places that use online
metrics to measure excitement had it as

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like the number one show and all
the streaming, and then some companies that

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have like fifteen million plus users where
they could actually like Nielsen track what they're

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watching, found it to be the
number one show and streaming. That was

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never part of my fantasy for this
show. I was just hoping I wouldn't

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upset diehard fans. So I'm over
the moon. It's like what we what

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we pulled off, is pretty much
impossible, and we pulled it off anyway.

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Yeah, I was reading I think
it was an interview with Rebecca Ferguson

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and she was talking about the staircase, I believe, and I was I

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was trying to imagine for you.
You know, you have this in your

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brain for twelve years. They make
the show, You go to the set

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and then there's this giant like how
big is the staircase? Like are you?

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Are you walking in that? And
you feel like you've like stepped into

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your own brain, Like what is
that experience like to see that? It's

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it's mind blowing. The thing.
It dwarfs you. I mean, it's

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like you're in a football sized warehouse
that's four stories high and the entire building.

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It's you know, it's one of
the biggest buildings you could walk into,

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and the entire thing is full of
a single set. And I've been

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on other sets since I seemed amazing
things getting built, and I've never seen

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anything like this. And most of
the people working on the show, even

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some Game of Thrones civets and people
who've been on other massive scale projects,

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had never seen anything quite like this. Wow. And then you do a

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cameo on the final episode, and
I was really curious about this. So

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I have been on multiple sets of
stuff that I've written, and as the

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writer, you show up and you're
like, oh, cool, they did

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the whatever this thing that I wrote. And for the first hour it's really

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cool, but after about an hour, you kind of feel like you're you're

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like a vestigial presence, like there's
really nothing for you to do, really,

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and you're just kind of sitting around
and you know, they're like setting

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up stuff. And then they do
a take and they do like ten takes

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of the same bit of dialogue and
you sort of you start to realize,

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God, am I bored? And
that's been That's been my experience, which

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is very counterintuitive. I think,
I'm so curious if because your your show

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is so much more visually spectacular,
but was it still a little bit of

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that. I've not been bored on
set yet, but I've only spent maybe

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twelve or fifteen days on the set
of Sila. I think it'll take a

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lot more. Before I was like, yeah, I'd rather be doing something

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else. You know, I've read
the scripts so many times that any any

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scene that we shoot, like,
I know why that seems important in what

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else happening and how it's connected,
and I want to see the best version

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of it. So even the eighth
and ninth take, I'm leaning into the

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monitor with everyone else, just trying
to figure out how the framing can be

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a little bit better and if we
got everything we needed. Yeah, but

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yeah, being an extra of course, that day flew by. I was

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that was like a twelve hour day
and it felt like a blink of an

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eye because I was just having so
much fun. That's great. Um,

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I'm curious. So there was a
bunch of like a boarded version of this

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that almost got made, right,
I think it was maybe gonna be a

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film at one point. I'm just
curious. Now it seems like obviously worked

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out for the best, But I
was wondering if you could touch on just

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briefly, like the Roads Not Taken, Like what what was the alternate versions

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of this that could have existed in
film and television? Originally this landed with

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um Ridley Scott and Steve's Alien People
don't. Steve doesn't have the name recognition

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he deserves, but he's probably the
top script doctor screenwriter in Hollywood. He's

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just an absolute genius and he and
a lot of what Ridley has done in

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his career has been because of his
partnership with Steve at times. So it

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was the two of them in twentyth
century Fox, which is like, this

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is like the sci fi trifecta if
you can get something made with those three

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parties, and so the the alternate
reality of this is probably something like The

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Martian. You know, if it
had gone well like The Martian did,

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it would have been a lot of
people would have seen it. If he

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said Silo like, hey, yeah, I remember that I was in a

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theater. I didn't catch it,
but I would have had a bump in

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book sales. I don't know,
if you know, it would have been

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a trilogy. Martian was only one
book, so maybe we would have gotten

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three films. So I can imagine
what that alternate reality is like, But

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I don't think it would be nearly
as much fun as what we're getting to

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do now, because this is going
to be three or four years of looking

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forward to new seasons and you know, something constantly filming, Like, there's

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just a lot of activity and a
lot of entertainment for me personally out of

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doing it this way, I want
to share with you sort of my experience,

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and maybe this is a standard for
the listeners who've also watched the show.

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I was so impressed with how much
is in that first episode. I

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think a lot of times shows like
this, where there's a really, you

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know, compelling central mystery, they're
content to just establish it in the first

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episode and then kind of coast a
bit. And I thought that silo the

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first episode goes, so there's so
much that happens in that first episode.

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It doesn't feel like it's it feels
so packed in. You feel like you've

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you've what would be on a lesser
show the first four or five episodes.

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That amount of plot feels covered in
the first episode. And then I thought,

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that's kind of the same thing about
the finale, like there was again

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a lesser version of this. You
could have ended it a couple times earlier.

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There's a couple big moments in that
finale where if you wanted to,

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you could have strung it out a
bit more. And so there's just a

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very clear sense of there's a lot
of runway on the road, that this

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is not a situation where there's a
limited amount of plot. If anything,

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it feels like we have an abundance, that there's so much to get through.

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I think that the first and the
last episode I was just incredibly impressed

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by, And I don't know,
I mean, I guess it's maybe it's

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a natural place to transition to the
question that I have as a fan,

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which is what is covered in the
show, Like what can I read that

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will not spoil season two for me? So, the original and the novel

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Wool is five separate publications that were
sandwiched into one book. It was serialized.

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The reason there's so much in that
pilot that first episode is that's the

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first book. It was about fifty
six pages, and to turn a fifty

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six page novel into a fifty six
page script is a huge task. We

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also, you know, Juliet doesn't
appear in the book until like the third

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part of the book, so you
read, you know, one hundred and

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twenty pages or something before you get
Juliette in the novel. So that's one

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of the reasons that the material is
so dense. If you read, you

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could read the first like forty of
the novel and still be in season one,

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and it's a very clear stopping point. There's like five parts of the

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novel you could still see the DNA
like the original bones of the certilization,

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and the first three books basically are
what we just showed in season one,

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and then books four and five,
which are longer. Even this only two.

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It's about sixty percent of the novel
that will be season two, got

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it. It seems like almost half
the novel. Yeah, it seems like

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Apple supported you tremendously. Because I'm
just thinking from a creative executive perspective.

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You know, you have Rebecca Ferguson. The Juliet character clearly is driving the

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narrative. But the you know,
I think that the lazier note might have

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been, let's just start with her
and simplify it. She's the lead let's

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get her in, you know,
and instead they're like, no, not

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not only are we not going to
start with her, We're gonna get David

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Loo, We're gonna get Rashida Jones. We're gonna totally blow out the beginning

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of this, which is kind of
a different group of characters. Get people

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invested in that, and then switch
perspective, which is, you know,

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a pretty that could be a scary
thing when you're putting it together, you

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could worry that always. The audience
kind of get invested in these characters and

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then they go away. Now I'll
get to get invested in a new character.

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And it seems like they totally steered
into that and got, you like,

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the best actors and really committed to
that approach. Yeah, I don't

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know if we couldn't have locked down
David or Rashida for you know, multiple

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seasons. So having a natural structure
that made these characters temporary actually let us

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you know, punch above our weight
when we went casting for those parts,

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and it all, you know,
for me, it just ups the stakes.

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Like I don't know that people who
aren't familiar with the book must think

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Juliet's days are numbered throughout the season
because we put in some tough situations and

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we haven't shied away. So I
just you know, it's George is dead,

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um, John's and Marn's book die
Like you know, there's a there's

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the body to really pile up in
the show. There's a part when she

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jumps off the staircase and it's used
as a as a I think it's either

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an act out or an episode out. And to your point, because I

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hadn't read the books, I'm like, maybe she does she just die?

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Like is that yeah? And does
she this season two open up with her

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dying and we introduce a new star, Like, you know, I don't

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want people to feel like her plot
armor is um is you know too thick.

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She does exhibit some plot armor in
the season, but like that's um

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It's hard to make an action pack
show that doesn't have a little bit of

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that. Yeah. I want to
share with you a thought that crossed my

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mind watching the show, and I
think it speaks to why the show is

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so appealing to people, and particularly
the first sason, which obviously then you

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have to find a different angle for
the second season. The first season you're

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just wondering, wondering, wondering.
You're like, you know that obviously whatever

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the people have been told is not
true, so you're thinking, well,

255
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what could it be? What could
it be? And then at one point

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there's mention of a massive door at
the bottom of the silo, and this

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thought like raised into my mind.
I'm like, what if it's not a

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silo, what if it's a skyscraper, and what if the door is at

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ground level? And the fact that
I could even think that in the same

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theory and be like that could be
true speaks to the fun of it,

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because it's like, what could it
be? Like, you're so curious.

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It's such a tantalizing mystery, and
I think that the fact that you the

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way that you landed it is very
satisfying is a very difficult task. I

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mean, as any writer would say, like, if you set something up

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where the mystery is such a big
part of it, how you're going to

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pay it off so that the audience
feels satisfied without it being obvious is a

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very difficult balancing act. Yeah,
I mean, we're lucky that this was

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kind of already tested the audiences with
the book. My favorite theory is people

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who wondered if maybe they're on a
spaceship, Like if you were doing a

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colony ship. I think people would
go crazy if they knew they're an outer

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space. But if they thought they
were on Earth still maybe they would,

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you know, maybe go half as
crazy. And I thought that was a

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Coult theory. Yeah, it's it
goes back to Plato's allegory of the cave,

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like if you have a very limited
keyhole through which you see the world,

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then what's out there? It could
be a lot, you know,

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a lot more, And but you
know what's fun is just everyone assuming.

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It's probably like getting in the mindset
of the characters, like maybe it's better

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out there than people say, you
know, I don't want to leave,

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and then when you finally get to
see out there, you're like, oh,

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hold on a second. Maybe you
know, the folks saying you better

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stay here are the ones who who
have it right. And I think what's

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great is like, even as you
go through the books, you can start

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second guessing yourself over and over again. What's great about it as an ending

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is it's a subversion of our expectations
extremely cleverly. Because the expectation is they're

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line it's beautiful outside they're keeping them
in here for reasons unknown, but once

286
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she gets out there, she's gonna
see it's beautiful. This was all a

287
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.039
lie. That would kind of be
the obvious way to go, And obviously

288
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you set it up like that because
we see images of it being nice outside

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and then the turn at the end
to see it so dystopian. It makes

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you it's like, man, maybe
Tim Robbins was onto something here, which

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I love because again it's such a
subversion. You totally expect the whole way

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through that he's just, you know, bad guy and that's what it is.

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And he even has what I think
is probably his best scene in the

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whole piece in the last episode he
started Ferguson in the cell and he has

295
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a moment of vulnerability where he's sort
of like, do you think I'm like

296
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super jazzed to like be in this
position and doing this? Like yeah,

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I love that he admits, like
I don't enjoy this, like I'd rather

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be doing something else. But if
I don't do this, everyone dies,

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And I think, you know,
you can be you can be right and

300
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still be a bad guy. Like
let's say let's say he's right that if

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he didn't do this, everyone would
die. I think Juliet's question question would

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be, but is there a better
way to do it? Like, is

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there a way to do it where
there's less suffering and where people know the

304
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truth? Yeah, I like you
have that little faith in humanity that we

305
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can't all be in on it and
decide to make the rational choice like,

306
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and I think that is a that's
a much better dynamic than like, I'm

307
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going to do bad things to you, because I get enjoyment out of it.

308
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.799
You could decide who to pull for, you know. I Yeah,

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I love going to Constant and seeing
the fandoms that's spread across the universe,

310
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and that what I mean by that
is people dressed up like Stormtroopers and Darth

311
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:15.400
Vader because they're like I think,
you know, these rebels are like causing

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trouble that people need order. Or
there's people dressed up like cleanons and there

313
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they value their like warrior ethic and
they think that the humans are like kind

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of you know, meddling and messing
things up all the time, and it's

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00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.960
rare to get that. You know, if you just have much stess twirling

316
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:42.599
bad guys, then you don't have
people who are who empathize with and have

317
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these characters resonate with them the sort
of like mad genius cleverness of it is,

318
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and correct me if I have all
the straight, because it's entirely possible

319
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:55.599
I'd misunderstance thing. But so basically, the idea is that someone is sent

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out to clean. The image that
is shown to them looks beautifull. Therefore

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they are motivated to do the cleaning
to show the people what it is.

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But the people don't see what they
see and then and then their suit is

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such that it's not like basically they
I guess there's a hole in the suit

324
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or something, and that's why they
die. And in Juliette's case, it's

325
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.839
been patched with the right patch and
that's why she's able to survive. Is

326
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:26.720
that do I have all that straight? Yeah? Exactly. And you know

327
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:32.319
the people who go out to clean, if they're of the mindset like I'm

328
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:36.640
keeping all this to myself, screw
these people. Then they'll also clean because

329
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:38.519
they want to act subserve it.
They're like, Okay, just do what

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00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:44.079
you're told. Let them think they
beat you. And meanwhile, like,

331
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screw those guys, Like I'm gonna
go over the hill and find all the

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00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:51.799
other people and we're we're in on
it, and these people aren't like,

333
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.839
see you losers. And if you
have a more magnanimous mindset, you're going

334
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to go out there and say,
I know they won't see it as beautifully

335
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as I'm seeing it, but man, I want to give them the best

336
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view of this possible. So wherever
you are on that spectrum, and then

337
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.240
in the middle of that spectrum is
a kind of like numb apathy where you

338
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.640
just go along and you have television, you're like you realize you're about to

339
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:21.079
die, or you're so in awe
of what you're seeing that you just go

340
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into cruise control. What nobody does
in that situation, and that this is

341
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what the world. This is kind
of the whole plots predicated on this.

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00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:36.480
No one goes out there sees that
in the mindset of I've been sent out

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to die or find out if my
fantasy is accurate, and then I'm gonna

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just not do it, and that
Juliet not cleaning is unprecedented, and that's

345
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what freaks out Bernard and makes them
run off. It's it's such an interesting

346
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:57.599
like psychological mousetrap that you've built,
and it really does make you think and

347
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you kind of have to like keep
puzzling over it, which is something that

348
00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:07.400
I always love. Um this device
of at the end where there's a there's

349
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a great movie called The Invitation.
I don't know if you've ever seen it.

350
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:11.519
Um, I'm going to spoil it
for your feet, don't mind,

351
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.920
Yeah, please relevant here. So
in The Invitation, we were in la

352
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and we go to this house.
It's like a dinner party, and over

353
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:23.599
the course of the dinner party,
you realize that it's they're trying to ingratiate

354
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people into a death cult. That's
the purpose of the dinner party. They've

355
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.640
got these new people that they're trying
to compel to join this death cult.

356
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.799
And it's very freaky, like a
suicide it's like a suicide cult basically.

357
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.960
Yeah, And so it's you think, wow, this is a very strange

358
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:45.039
situation. And it all takes place
in the house and then at the end

359
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.079
they go to like the balcony and
they light like a red light or something,

360
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and then you sort of pan out
to like the hills and you see

361
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.799
like dozens of red lights and you're
like, holy shit, like you know,

362
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and so I think that as a
device, as a narrative device,

363
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.480
this notion of we're going to spend
so much time in this confined such scenario

364
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:07.559
and then we're going to pull out
and show you that this is a tiny

365
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.799
speck of a much bigger thing.
I feel like that always works. I

366
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.960
can't think of a time where that
has been done where I've not been like

367
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:17.759
super satisfied by it. And I
think the end of season one and this

368
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:22.359
shows another great example that it's it's
so good because you know, I won't

369
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:23.640
spoil you with how many there are, but you can see that there's like,

370
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:27.799
you know, more than a dozen
or so right there. Everything that

371
00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:33.720
just happened in season one is just
a small subset of what's happening in that

372
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.599
silo. There's so many lives being
lived there, but people that are people

373
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:44.599
being stopped to clean their people in
judicial and it who are killing people and

374
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.640
manipulating people and drugging people. There's
all the drama that Alison and Holstein went

375
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:52.880
through with having kids, and we
know that's all bunch of nonsense as well.

376
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.799
And in each one of those other
little indentions in the earth, like

377
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.680
similar stories were happening, And I
think that's what's so heartbreaking about it is

378
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:06.880
you're like, Okay, if there's
there's conflicts happening, if these people can

379
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:08.440
just resolve that, maybe things will
be okay, and then you zoom out

380
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.759
and you're like, oh god,
there's conflict everywhere. There's people suffering.

381
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:18.400
There's so many people trapped, you
know, like and who who Like who

382
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:19.920
do this to these people? And
then you're like, who do this to

383
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:26.240
all these people? Yes? And
then you realize the scale whoever's behind this

384
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:30.960
you never built this thing. The
scale of what they did is way more

385
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.599
absurd than what you thought. When
you're just in that one side would all

386
00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:37.960
that. I think it's subconsciously all
that hits you when when you pan out

387
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:40.839
right, it just hits you.
In that three second image, you're thinking

388
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:42.599
all that stuff that you just said. So it's like your brain sort of

389
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.160
breaks. I'm curious about as you
go into season two, because it does.

390
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.839
You would think in theory, it's
almost like you have to change not

391
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.119
the genre, but kind of the
genre because it's no longer like the big

392
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.680
mystery of what is you know what's
out there? Now we know what's out

393
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:04.640
there So is it more of like
now the mystery is what's in the other

394
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:08.400
ones, so it's still a mystery
show or does it kind of change a

395
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:12.319
bit and it's not really a mystery
show anymore. It's sort of about different

396
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:17.559
things. The mechanics of it are
a bit different. What's what's amazing is

397
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:25.440
that the level of mystery just goes
way up after this and the people asking

398
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.240
the questions, what the questions are
asking, and the people who are asking

399
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:33.880
it are way more interesting, and
so the stakes are so much higher.

400
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:41.160
Like I don't know if you could
tell when Bernard hurt about the door at

401
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:45.000
the bottom of Silo, he had
never heard of this before. You know,

402
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:47.880
I think he conveys it really well
in his face and he's like,

403
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.880
what are you talking about? So
there are things that he doesn't know and

404
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.920
that you know, that's where we
get to start playing in season two of

405
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:06.400
like Who's the Puppet? The guy
playing with the puppet also has strings on

406
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:11.440
and Bernard is starting to notice those
strings. Oh my god, what's what's

407
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.160
really going on here? So yeah, it's still a mystery show, but

408
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:22.799
also the action is so much more
intense, the stakes are higher. Things

409
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.640
really get out of control, all
because of what Juliet did, which goes

410
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:30.440
back to what Alison did, which
you know it feeds into George and Holston

411
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.759
and so many other people that we
think aren't around long, but the influence

412
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:40.200
that they had and the ripple effect
of their decisions are here for quite a

413
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:45.279
while. Rebecca Ferguson was very supportive
of you in an interview, and essentially

414
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:49.240
what she said, if I remember
correctly, was she read the source material,

415
00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:55.880
then she read the scripts, and
she passed and she said, I

416
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:57.319
don't want to do it because I
don't think essentially, I don't think it's

417
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:02.559
as good as the book. And
then they took her notes, rewrote it.

418
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:03.880
She couldn't let go of it.
She was still thinking about it.

419
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.440
So she was like, did they
cast anybody yet? And I'm like no,

420
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.200
She's like, all right, well
fine. And then even in the

421
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.400
same interview she was very candid.
She was just like, season two is

422
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.480
like way even though this is really
good, season two is like way better,

423
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:21.359
Like she was. She clearly expressed
a lot of excitement for where she

424
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.599
was going in season two. So
I have noticed that, and I've talked

425
00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:30.440
to other writers and creators about this
before. If the lead person is like

426
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:36.440
really defensive of the source material,
whether that's an original spec script, whether

427
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.680
it's a book, whatever it might
be, that seems like a really good

428
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:44.000
sign for the show to be successful
or movie. I interviewed actually the guys

429
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.160
who wrote Sharper, which is an
Apple Plus film, which is an incredibly

430
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:51.240
dense narrative and very complex and has
a lot of interesting things that it does,

431
00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:53.599
and they were like, the reason
this movie is good is because Julianne

432
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:57.000
Moore backed us from minute one.
She was like, I like their script,

433
00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.720
We're doing their script. Same thing. I interviewed Trunk, who wrote

434
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:02.559
The Equalizer with Denzel, and he
was like, the reason that it's good,

435
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:06.039
it's because Denzel every time they wanted
to change something, he was like,

436
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:07.720
wait, wait, why do we
change it from Richard's original script?

437
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:13.519
So how much how meaningful was it
her support and what ended up you know,

438
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.680
becoming the product at the end,
it was huge UM and Graham was

439
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.960
the same way. Graham fell in
love with the source material. He's he's

440
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:27.200
been interested in this even before Apple
got it back when Sony was you know,

441
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.480
competing with UM with Ridley for this
UM. So he was attached to

442
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:39.400
the source material. Jamie Rlick that
at Apple is a huge like he's obsessed

443
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.799
with the books and that's why it's
at you know, landed at Apple because

444
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:52.440
of his um, his efforts um
so and and then Morton became obsessed with

445
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:57.599
the shi with the world, and
a lot of the detail and the quality

446
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:02.359
comes from Morton um saying like,
no compromise, We're doing it this way

447
00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:07.000
and fighting for things like um like
the guys we got for sound and things

448
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.519
like that that you know, Apple
was like we can't, can't do it

449
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.680
has to be the UK and was
like, nope, my guys on Iceland,

450
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:16.960
We're going to do it this way. And I all these people were

451
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.640
fighting all in the same direction.
They weren't fighting each other, They're all

452
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:28.079
fighting the friction that it takes to
make great content. The other thing Rebecca

453
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:36.880
did is she brought a level of
professionalism and just niceness onto set that trickled

454
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.519
down everywhere. Like when you're number
one on the call sheet, is the

455
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:45.119
nicest person in the room. No
one can be a baby, No one

456
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:51.720
can you know, treat others with
disrespect. She knew, you know,

457
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:58.680
the crew, she chatted up everybody
in between takes. She was, you

458
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.720
know, the first one to throw
her arms around you when the day started,

459
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:07.079
like she said, an example that
everyone had to live up to.

460
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:13.320
And you know, it's a huge
gift to us to get her when we

461
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:15.840
did, because we probably can't get
her now, like her star was just

462
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:22.280
on the rise when we landed her. But I also appreciate just because of

463
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:24.679
the relationship that we formed that like
we gave her a gift as well,

464
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:31.239
Like there are very few roles like
this for female actors. She's a star,

465
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:37.519
but she's always a co star.
She doesn't get to like, you

466
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.280
know, headlines something, be an
executive producer, have creative input. So

467
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.599
it's one of those things where like
we gave each other a gift, which

468
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:52.039
is this show where she's giving us
years of her peak and we're giving her

469
00:34:53.360 --> 00:35:00.519
a huge vehicle for her to show
off her chops. And boy, there's

470
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.199
nothing better than like everyone winning.
And that's how it's felt with this show,

471
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.639
Like everyone's winning. The fans of
the books are winning, fans of

472
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.800
good TV, Apple, the publishers
who believed in the you know, the

473
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:17.039
silver forty publishers around the world who
have been waiting for some adaptation and price

474
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:23.480
that into their initial offers. So
it's just like there's no there's no bad

475
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:28.280
version of this right now. It's
just all good from everybody's perspective. It's

476
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.559
interesting that Ridley Scott twenty Century Fox
Legacy because when when Juliette is first introduced

477
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.800
the way that Rebecca appears, so
she comes out of the furnace or whatever,

478
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:43.159
you know, the reactor thing,
she's totally like she's Sigourney Weaver,

479
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:46.840
an alien, like she's she's Ripley
for sure. She just has this And

480
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:50.199
it was the same you know when
she first shows up and I think it's

481
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.639
Mission possible, rog nation. I
want to say, um, she was

482
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.199
noticeable, Like you know, there's
been a lot of great actors in those

483
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:59.920
films, but she was the first
person honestly, like you, Philip semore

484
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.920
often as the bad guy, but
like where you're like, this person has

485
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:07.480
the charisma everything. Like if she
was the lead, if Tom Cruise ever

486
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.320
decides to like maybe take a break, like and she wants to lead one

487
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.559
of these movies, she could totally
do it. She's really like a very

488
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.719
rare that level of charisma as a
performer is very rare, and I think

489
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.880
she would have been a star at
any other age. She could have been

490
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.920
in Casablanca episode every Bogart like.
She just has a timeless star quality to

491
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:29.039
her that you know is unusual.
Yeah, it's very unusual. And also

492
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:37.800
to have the physicality and also the
emotional nuance. I wish, I wish

493
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.079
we could talk about season two stuff, and I hope that they release some

494
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:47.599
behind the scenes. What she's pulling
off physically in season two is way more

495
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.599
impressive than Tom driving a motorcycle off
a cliff, like a stunt that you

496
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:59.400
and I could prep for in a
weekend and pull off. It's basically parachuting.

497
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.360
Um, I don't know how she's
doing what she's doing in season two,

498
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.039
and you'll you'll you'll get it when
you see it and you realize this

499
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.960
is all practical and it's not special
effects, and it is her. But

500
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:19.760
she's gonna get a war nominations for
if she doesn't get it for this season,

501
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.920
she'll get it for next season.
To deserve every bit of it.

502
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.320
It's insane. She's she's a super
rare talent. We're very lucky to have

503
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:30.480
her. My last question before we
wrap up. Can I read the graphic

504
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:38.679
novel without spoiling season two for myself? Half of it? Okay? I

505
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:43.119
don't, And I don't think you
know. I'm dying to see season two

506
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:45.320
and I know the story intimately,
so I don't think you can spoil.

507
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:51.599
There's a lot of people reading the
novels right now, and I think they're

508
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.400
going to enjoy it, just like
fans of the books have enjoyed the first

509
00:37:54.440 --> 00:38:00.119
season. And it's similar to me, Like I'm the kind of person that

510
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.159
can rewatch a movie because I just
want to spend time in that world with

511
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:07.800
those people, Like I can watch
Back to the Future right now and love

512
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.719
every scene, and knowing what happens
does it detract from that for some for

513
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:15.079
some reason. So I don't think
you can. I don't think you can

514
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:20.159
ruin season two by reading reading ahead. And when is season two projected to

515
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:24.960
start release? I haven't heard a
release date, but just looking at you

516
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.480
know they're not going to want to
delay it. Like you really have to

517
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:32.320
be careful with your launch window on
a first season because you don't want to

518
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.599
you know, you want as much
empty space as possible. But now,

519
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.679
whenever you release the second season,
you're gonna have a lot of hype.

520
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:45.599
It's gonna it markets itself. Now. We wrapped season one in June of

521
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:49.920
last year, and here we are, you know, in July, and

522
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:54.000
the season's over some I'm hoping less
than a year from now, Like it'd

523
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.719
be great if they released it around
the same time. I love that kind

524
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:00.800
of consistency. Yeah cool man,
Well that is uh yeah, I don't

525
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:02.920
want to take more of your time. I so appreciate you coming on.

526
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.000
It's been such a pleasure to watch
the show, and I'm very excited to

527
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.000
now go read the books for me, honestly, Like that's I think it's

528
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:13.639
what's cool about it is it's like
you get just enough from the show where

529
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:15.199
you're like, I would love to
you know, I want to read five

530
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:19.480
pages about like the guy whose shop
is down there on the corner of the

531
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.360
street, Like I want to really
get into the world. So I'm really

532
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.199
excited to dig into the books.
And I thank you very much for coming

533
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:28.440
on. Thanks man. It's fun
to talk to someone who has such a

534
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:31.320
high level of knowledge of the craft, so you get to have different a

535
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:36.039
different conversation. So this is a
blastroom. I really appreciate it. Man,

536
00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:37.480
thank you so much for listening.
Also to the audience. If you

537
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.559
enjoy the show, please leave us
a five star review on Apple Podcasts and

538
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:45.039
subscribe future episodes. That is a
show for today until next time. Bye bye,