Jack Austin Tries To Convince Me To Return To Marvel

WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:22.160
Voyage. Welcome to watch this tonight. I'm your host, Dan Bettimore.

2
00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:25.679
I'm a producer, writer of film
and television and now a podcast producer.

3
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.519
And despite having every streaming service,
I never know what to watch. So

4
00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:33.039
anytime I watch something good, I
talk about it on this show. This

5
00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:36.200
way, you'll never have the same
problem I do. I watched this tonight.

6
00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:40.000
There's always something good to watch.
Let's get started, all right.

7
00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.880
Today on the show, I have
the wonderful Jack Austin of seven Lamb.

8
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.719
Jack is an awesome guy. He's
done a lot of stuff with us with

9
00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:51.799
Voyage with scripted podcasts, but he
also has a podcast called Alter Ego where

10
00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:56.159
he talks about pop culture, and
specifically he talks a lot about Marvel stuff.

11
00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:00.520
And I think it was god.
It was one of the moves of

12
00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.840
the Avengers where I walked out of
the theater and I was like, and

13
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.840
I like walked out on Marvel.
I like left, I like a jilted,

14
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.480
like you know, boyfriend or something. And and it's such a big

15
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.760
part of our society and also I
think it's at as traditional point right now,

16
00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:19.079
and so I wanted to have Jack
on. And basically Jack's gonna gend

17
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.560
to convince me what I should watch
that I haven't watched a Marvel Well,

18
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.319
sure, so let's start. I
don't want to sound like a therapist,

19
00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:33.239
but where did your trauma start?
Where did the problems start with Marvel?

20
00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:36.920
What made you want to get up
and walk out? So when they got

21
00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:40.599
the Avengers together, they obviously did
the first movie with Jos Sweden, and

22
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:47.799
then they had a movie after that. It's one of the ones that I

23
00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:53.079
believe Black Panther was in it.
I believe, Oh this isn't the original

24
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.040
Avengers. Are you talking about civil
War? Because civil warhead? I think

25
00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.799
it was Civil War? Okay,
yeah, leave it with civil War.

26
00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.519
And I and I remember I walked, yes, you know, actually I'm

27
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.719
confident of the Civil War. And
I remember I watched it and I walked

28
00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.599
out of the theater and I was
like, I have I have not been

29
00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:14.439
improved as a person in any way
by watching it. There's nothing about this

30
00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:17.639
that is going to stay with me. That is And then you know,

31
00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:23.560
I would say the inverse of that
is Black Panther, which is also probably

32
00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:25.159
one of the last Marvel things I
watched, which I saw with the buddy

33
00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:30.879
of mine. Um, we're both
were both we're both Moroccans actually, and

34
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:37.000
we're both from Baltimore, and we
both deeply understood the meaningfulness of Black Panther,

35
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.319
right, and it's actually has really
is like a meaningful thing for like

36
00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:44.560
black representation, and like it was
really an important movie. So that I

37
00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:46.719
was like, that is actually about
something that has meaning. I really connected

38
00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.879
to it. But I guess what
happened is at a certain point to me

39
00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:53.360
as like and maybe this is like
a older too. I was like,

40
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:59.120
you know, if it's just fun, disposable entertainment, I don't know that

41
00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.960
I'm I don't know that I care
enough to continue watching, and so I

42
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.400
just sort of I flew the coop. I can understand that for sure.

43
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.919
And everybody perceives everything differently, right, myself included. I've been reading comics

44
00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.680
and watching you know, the X
Man animated series. I've been so indoctrinated

45
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.439
into Marvel and my heroes and stuff
like that since I was a young boy.

46
00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:25.240
So I think sometimes myself, as
a hardcore fan, is able to

47
00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.560
see a lot more in what they're
showing me on the screen than what your

48
00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.879
average person is going to appreciate.
Does that make sense. Yeah, So

49
00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.240
when it comes to civil war,
it's tough with Marvel, right because people

50
00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.599
see this big catalog of movies that
they have to watch and they're like,

51
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.680
I've got to watch all of this
to understand everything, and that can be

52
00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:51.879
really daunting. I can completely understand
where people are coming from in that regard.

53
00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.360
But when it comes to our heroes, right, superhero movies are so

54
00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:00.879
different because it's so fantastic and it's
so like outside of them of reality.

55
00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:06.879
And I think that's good and bad
because sure, there aren't billionaires out there

56
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:11.360
putting suits of arm around themselves and
flying around and you know, trying to

57
00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:15.319
stop criminals and things of that nature. That's ridiculous. But on the other

58
00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.120
side of that coin, sometimes reality
can really suck, so that can be

59
00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:23.399
a great escape to get to that
medium and just kind of have some fun

60
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:29.240
for a while. And I think
the best superhero movies are ones that tell

61
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:34.519
the human stories that we can relate
to and add that fantastic on top of

62
00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:40.720
it, so we can kind of
try to live vicariously through that in a

63
00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.240
way. I mean, when you
look at some of these heroes, everybody's

64
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:49.120
got somebody that they can identify with. They've got somebody that they see their

65
00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.920
attitude or the way they represent themselves
on screen, and they go, Man,

66
00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.759
if I could do that, that's
the kind of thing, you know

67
00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.680
what I mean, Like everybody is
Captain America. If I could be this

68
00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:04.000
big symbol and you know, go
and be an icon for everybody and make

69
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:05.879
good in the world, I would
do that. Or you have the people

70
00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:09.439
go, if I had billions of
dollars, I'd make a cool Iron Man

71
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:13.040
suit and fly over the city all
I wanted. Or some people who have

72
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:15.319
you know, it's it's funny.
I'll tell you this one. This one

73
00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.839
is probably the most meaningful story for
me. For superheroes. It's Aquaman.

74
00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.160
And a lot of people can't stand
Aquaman. They think it's kind of a

75
00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:27.800
silly movie and things like that.
But my oldest son, since he was

76
00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.800
very young, has been afraid of
water. He doesn't like getting water on

77
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.240
his head, he didn't like getting
bathed in things of that nature. He

78
00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:39.439
would have a full blown meltdown.
And I found out through all this,

79
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.680
you know movies that I watched at
Aquaman was somebody he identified with. He

80
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:48.800
loved him, and I was like
Aquaman, why I don't understand, and

81
00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.360
it started to correlate with me.
He had such a such a deep fear

82
00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.639
of water, and this superhero was
so strong and powerful and he lived in

83
00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.920
the water, and it was like
he saw something that he didn't have in

84
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.319
himself and he identified with that character. I took him to see Aquaman in

85
00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:12.959
theaters and there's this moment in the
movie where Aquaman is coming out wearing the

86
00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:17.879
original Aquaman uniform and it's a dead
silent theater and all you hear is my

87
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:25.120
son go, wow, you know
what I mean? So like that seeing

88
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:31.519
that in heroes has a lot of
meeting in my personal opinion. But when

89
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.680
I'm talking about movies that you're gonna
want to watch, it all depends on

90
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:42.199
the individual. So you saying you
have things that have meaning, and Black

91
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.079
Panther being important to you because you're
being Moroccan and it has something in the

92
00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:47.680
I mean, it depends on what
you're looking for. So if you're looking

93
00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:55.720
for something more grounded in reality,
I would probably say don't watch any of

94
00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:02.439
the Thorn movies. I would probably
steer you toward Guardians of the Galaxy.

95
00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:09.000
And that sounds ridiculous. Well,
because so this is it's a really it's

96
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.800
a good place for us to talk
him about the pivot that's happening with Marvel,

97
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.160
right because and this is an interesting
thing about emotion and storytelling. I

98
00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.600
was talking to somebody m a dad
at my daughter's school, and he was

99
00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:21.959
like, yeah, man, I
saw a Guardian And he's like this big,

100
00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.319
like kind of macho dude, and
he's like, yeah, I saw

101
00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.759
Guardians Gazi three, very emotional.
He's like, yeah, really, And

102
00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:33.199
I remembered vividly seeing Guardians Galaxy two
and like there's a very emotional ending of

103
00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:36.680
that movie, and even the first
one is very emotional. And it's not

104
00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:44.560
a coincidence that those movies have been
sort of like holding off the tide of

105
00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.360
kind of some negative results for Marvel. So it's pulling off the mass exodus.

106
00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.079
You're right, And so I think
that it's not to say that I

107
00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.439
for me personally, like everything has
to be like Black Panther, where it

108
00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:01.439
has its like heavy, heavy cultural
significance. I just want movies where there's

109
00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.319
like a real emotion to it that
is not sanitized, if that makes sense.

110
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.279
Yeah, something that you can truly
identify with and relate to. That's

111
00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.000
what makes these movies so great,
and that's what makes James Gunn in particular

112
00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:22.079
really great. I'm very excited for
what he's going to do at DC.

113
00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.639
I think he's an excellent storyteller,
and I think he gets my point across

114
00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.680
the best, because I say,
Guardians of the Galaxy for people you can

115
00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:33.679
identify with. None of us fly
around in spaceships for a living. We

116
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:39.120
don't live in the cranium of a
celestial out there in a far away galaxy.

117
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:45.320
But the stories all of them go
through are so much closer to you

118
00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.559
and I than anybody else in the
universe. Right. We're not taking super

119
00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.240
serium, we're not gods. We're
not billionaires, that's for sure, although

120
00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:58.320
somehow super Serium and and Godliness seemed
closer to being billionaires at times. But

121
00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.240
the Audians are just regular folks,
well Guardians specifically. They're like fuck ups,

122
00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.000
right, I Mean, that's sort
of the idea, is that they're

123
00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.519
all like, they're all on a
personal level disasters. Every single one of

124
00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:13.240
them has has big, major character
flaws, and that's what makes them the

125
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:20.159
greatest group to identify with, because
there's nobody out there's perfect. I personally

126
00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:24.159
love star Lord. He's probably my
favorite in the MCU right now. Of

127
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.480
all those characters that are out there, star Lord I identify with the most

128
00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.480
because he's just trying to get by
man every single day. And especially in

129
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:39.000
Guardians three, which I won't spoil
for anybody, but I will say Guardians

130
00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.360
three, in my humble opinion,
was the best Marvel movie they've ever put

131
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:50.279
out that is not a Avengers level
movie. I mean, there are depths

132
00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.320
of emotion in that movie that you
don't feel from other movies, which was

133
00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:58.399
what makes it so good. I'm
curious. So obviously everyone has told me,

134
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.600
you know, the Avengers movies wants
they really went for it, and

135
00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.159
it's like you really got to watch
him and I never did. Besides those,

136
00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:09.639
and besides Scarding the Galaxy, is
there anything that I've really missed in

137
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:15.320
the Marvel ecosphere that is good,
whether it's TV, your movies. Yeah,

138
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.799
there is probably The all star for
me, which is one of that

139
00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.879
nobody really knows about is a little
Disney Plus special called Werewolf by Night.

140
00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.200
Oh. I remember hearing about that. Now that one was done. It's

141
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.480
in the MCU, but it's kind
of separate right, and it is a

142
00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.960
character. Werewolf by Night is a
Marvel character. He's essentially a guy who

143
00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:41.840
can turn into a werewolf and he
fights supernatural villains in that aspect. But

144
00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:48.159
the way they shot that was so
unique to anything I've ever seen in Marvel,

145
00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.240
and it made me just so happy. It dug into its roots of

146
00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:58.879
like the old school Frankenstein Monster practical
effects. It's all shot in black white.

147
00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.919
It's just it's really well done.
All the performances are great in it

148
00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:09.240
too. It's just got something new
and it just, I don't know,

149
00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.480
it tugged at my heartstrings. It's
got a lot of gore too. It's

150
00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.759
the first time you see actual,
you know, limbs getting ripped off and

151
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.759
people getting chopped up. And I
was like, this is a different level

152
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.240
for something that Marvel has done.
And that's another point that I want to

153
00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.759
bring up later. But let's talk
about other things that you haven't seen.

154
00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.200
So no TV for you yet.
I'm assuming you've just kind of sworn off

155
00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.600
Marvel. Another one that was very
interesting and very unique was One Division.

156
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.399
Oh yeah, I remember hearing about
that as well. Yeah, I mean

157
00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.240
a lot of people said that it
was very inventive and very different from stuff

158
00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.200
they're also done. And yeah,
it's one of those you know, to

159
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.759
me, not everybody has to be
blowing something up for it to be a

160
00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:56.399
great movie, especially a superhero movie, and this one was to me essentially

161
00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.120
is a lot of dealing with trauma
and how we deal with trauma, and

162
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:05.679
one division was an excellent representation of
that, especially with somebody as such high

163
00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:11.799
levels of power as a Scarlet Witch
or you know, Elizabeth Olsen's character.

164
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:18.399
But in terms of movies that you've
missed too, Shuan Chi, Shuan Chianchi

165
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:24.399
good. I love Shuan Chi.
And so here's my question, um,

166
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.320
because this is they I think we're
Marvel ran into some trouble and it's a

167
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.399
natural thing with these sorts of stories, and they've there's been a lot of

168
00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.840
kind of satirical in the online commentary
about this sort of thing, where pretty

169
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:41.480
much it's like, all right,
you have blank hero, if blank bad

170
00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.519
guy. At some point, there's
gonna be something in the sky, it's

171
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:50.120
gonna destroy New York, the Earth, whatever, and there's gonna be a

172
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.840
big fight at the end. They're
gonna win, and and basically we're gonna

173
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.879
just recycle that and we're gonna plug
in like Mad Lives, We're gonna plug

174
00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.159
in this hero and this bad guy. But you pretty much know it's gonna

175
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.840
end with this big confrontation and whatever, the big gas cloud in the sky.

176
00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.080
So like something like a Chang Chi
is a good example. This is

177
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.240
it different from that? Is it
the same as that? Like what made

178
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.120
it great for you? I think
it's different than that because it doesn't go

179
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.159
towards those old tropes. And I
think the villain of the movie is one

180
00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.080
of my favorites of all time.
I put him up there with Thanos.

181
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.720
I talk about it all the time. It's Shoon Chi's father, and I

182
00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.720
love his character so much. But
yes, it's very different because typically it's

183
00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:39.159
good guy bad guy, we're gonna
meet in the middle and fight, And

184
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.679
this one takes a massive left turn
at the end of the movie where you're

185
00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.320
like, okay, this is what's
gonna happen, and you're like, okay,

186
00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.519
I had no idea this was something
that was about to go on in

187
00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.120
the movie. I don't know again, I don't I don't know how we

188
00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.039
want to do spoilers or anything like
that, but you know, long story

189
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.519
short, the main villain has lost
his wife and it just kind of disconnects

190
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:07.759
him from all of reality, you
know, and he has this insane plan

191
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.240
that he can get her back somehow, And the film kind of follows Shuan

192
00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:16.000
cheese progression as somebody who was trying
to distance himself from his father to somebody

193
00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.639
who has a purpose and kind of
wants to stop him. In there is

194
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:24.399
that, you know, that iconic
clash, But that's not the whole movie

195
00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:28.440
right there. There's a lot more
that happens beyond that. Another one if

196
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:33.480
you want, like the basic tropes
of superhero movies, Aunt Man and the

197
00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:39.200
Wasp is one that I could have
on repeat all the time. So talk

198
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.840
to you about that, Like,
what is it? I know, obviously

199
00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.759
it's more comic than some of the
other ones. Yeah, yeah, Is

200
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.399
there anything they're doing differently on a
like a fun foundational narrative level or is

201
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.639
it kind of the same thing but
just a more comedic approach. No,

202
00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:56.240
no, no, no. They
did things in that one that were so

203
00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:01.879
different than any other Marvel movie.
For instance, Laurence fishburn Fishburne's character who

204
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.600
code named Goliath for those of you
who are big time comic fans, you

205
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.399
know who Goliath is. There's aunt
Man, and there was this kind of

206
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.080
his antithesis was Goliath on the other
side. But there's a point in the

207
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:20.480
movie where one of the villains is
like, I'm gonna go after Scott's family.

208
00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.000
That's how we'll get him to do
everything. And that is the iconic

209
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.960
trope of all bad guys. Right, I'm gonna kidnap your kid, I'm

210
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.559
gonna go after your wife, I'm
gonna do X y Z. And one

211
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.720
character goes, let me go ahead
and tell you something. I understand we

212
00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:35.919
have a goal that we're after,
but if you do something to hurt that

213
00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:41.159
person's family, I'm done. I'm
out. And it's something that they follow.

214
00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.559
They go, okay, all right, that's fair. That's the line

215
00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.519
we're not going to cross. And
then you know they have to unfold on

216
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:52.159
either side. I just like showing
people who may have nefarious purposes. For

217
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.519
instance, Ghost is the character that
wants to do whatever she can to restore

218
00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.080
herself if you will, and they
find out that there's another way to do

219
00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.039
it they can. They're still the
bad guy. They still have nefarious purposes,

220
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:07.000
they still want to try to do
that. But somebody I was like,

221
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.120
why does every bad guy in every
movie always has that mentality of Nope,

222
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.440
I don't care about anything. Let's
kill the kids, let's blow up

223
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.240
the city, let's do this.
Why can't we ever have a bad guy

224
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.519
that goes, yeah, hold on, maybe this isn't the right thing to

225
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.360
do. And aunt man, I
thought did that beautifully because it avoided that

226
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.559
classic you know, I need to
save my daughter and da da da da

227
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.639
dad. No, we can still
achieve our common goal and have a compelling

228
00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:42.120
narrative without having to follow the blueprint. It's funny. It's almost like like

229
00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:45.559
when do you have stuff that you
want to see but you just never end

230
00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.679
up seeing it? And it's like
you're like the brain that has absorbed all

231
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.200
these things that I was curious about. Did you see them? Did you

232
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.120
see the second Black Panther? Which
I have not seen? I have I

233
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.279
have seen the Second Black Panther?
Was So what threw me off with one?

234
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.200
Because again I really liked the first
one. Is that the marketing.

235
00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.279
I was like, so they're fighting
like bad guy? Awqua man, Like,

236
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.559
what is the I was really thrown
by that. I was like,

237
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:15.119
what so because that, to me, that took it away from I really

238
00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.680
liked in the first Black Panther,
where it's basically like, hey, the

239
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.519
bad guy has a point. You
know, You're like, oh, I

240
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.920
can't you can see where he's coming
from, And so going into the second

241
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.680
one it made it less grounded,
which I think is why I checked out

242
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.319
a little bit. But did you
like the second one? And what was

243
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.720
the bad guys situation in the second
one? So the bad guy situation in

244
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.319
the second one is a character named
Naymore. Now nay More for comic book

245
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.799
fans would know, he is I
think one of the very first ever superheroes

246
00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:52.160
ever published by Marble. It was
a cyborg version of the Flash and not

247
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.319
the Flash of the human Torch and
nay More. So Naymore is an X

248
00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:02.440
man who's been around forever and he
is kind of well, actually he was

249
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:06.920
around before Aquaman, so it's funny
to call him Marvel's Aquaman. Aquaman is

250
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.559
kind of DC's nay More, although
Aquaman's obviously been a lot more successful,

251
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.440
and they just kind of put those
two together, those two societies, and

252
00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:25.119
I think Aquam Aquaman two Black Panther, Wakonda Forever really suffered from missing Chadwick

253
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:30.359
Boseman. It was hard to build
that character up so much and have him

254
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.480
be so important and then him just
not be a part of it. It

255
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:40.680
was very noticeable to me, Um
I personally it was not And I can

256
00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:44.480
understand why it would be so meaningful
to you to seek being Moroccan and seeing

257
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.880
things that really, Oh man,
that's that's that's that's kind of speaks to

258
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.480
you. But to me, Black
Panther and Wakanda Forever didn't really do it

259
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.559
for me. I thought they were
good movies, but I didn't see them

260
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:59.720
as the cultural phenomenon that everybody was
saying that they were. And Black Panther

261
00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.000
too, I don't know. I
just didn't like the direction that it went.

262
00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:10.279
I thought that they have so many
excellent actors and performers and set designers

263
00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.039
and stuff like that. There were
just it was just a chunky movie.

264
00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:18.079
To me. There's a whole sequence
with a young lady that ironheart. I

265
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.279
don't think she even needed to be
in the movie. To me, I

266
00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.200
felt like her whole character. I
mean, I'm sure she could be great

267
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.680
have her own series, and she
will, and I'll watch it, but

268
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:33.880
in terms of her being integral to
Black panther Workonda forever I didn't feel like

269
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.039
she was. There was this whole
thing where you know, again, I

270
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.599
don't want to spoil it, but
it's like, we need to do this,

271
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.200
and it's like, well, here
are all our other options? Can

272
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:49.720
we talk about this in the bad
guy's Like, No, all I can

273
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.240
do is I can only kill this
person. That's the only way it's gonna

274
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.440
be better. Well, you don't
have to. You have my word that

275
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.039
this won't happen. Let's have things
be kind of equitable here, let's work

276
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.319
together. Yeah, I appreciate you
saying that, but nope, I'm just

277
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.519
gonna have to kill this Person's all
the way up. The only way we

278
00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.599
can do it. You should start
doing like Marvel movie recaps of just you

279
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:15.119
explaining like very reasonably, like all
right, well you know so that maybe

280
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.400
that's a good place to pivot to
where Marvel that now. So it's been

281
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.759
interesting for me to watch, like
again, like I abandoned it and left

282
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.640
the country basically, and then it
always remained extremely popular for I would say,

283
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:32.160
a good another five years, and
then only within the last couple of

284
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.599
years you've sort of started to see
maybe I'm not saying the wheels come off,

285
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.559
but like maybe one wheel came off. And in terms of like the

286
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:45.480
audience responding and they're making less money. And I do wonder if it's interesting

287
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.200
to hear for you that like there
is a diversity and how they've presented these

288
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.799
stories and the diversity of like not
just like literal diversity, but like diversity

289
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.039
of a narrative style and things like
that. But it does seem like the

290
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:00.359
audience is starting to have a fatigue
factor. Where do you think they're gonna

291
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.079
Where do you think they need to
kind of pivot from here to not like

292
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:10.960
have other people like me just abandoned
ship. So the challenge with Marvel is

293
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.680
when they got done with Infinity War, that was their big Holy crap,

294
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.200
this is our pivotal moment. We've
been building towards this for twelve years now.

295
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.279
When iron Man first came out,
it wasn't I mean, it was

296
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.119
great, people loved it, but
it wasn't like the Avengers. It wasn't

297
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.319
that big. They were building towards
something. So they went to that big

298
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.440
moment. I think it had a
massive payoff. It was great, but

299
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:36.559
then they had to start over,
and then you have the casual fan who

300
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:38.240
says, well, I don't want
to start over. I like iron Man.

301
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.160
Bring iron Man back, And that's
not really how it's working. So

302
00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:48.319
Marvel got really big for their britches
and they started saying, Okay, Disney

303
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.039
Plus and I remember reporting on this
on Alter Ego. They were like,

304
00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:56.480
we're gonna have something come out every
month for like sixteen months. And you

305
00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:03.039
and I know about the production side, right, that is an insane goal

306
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.039
to have, especially when you're talking
about the level that Marvel and Disney likes

307
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.559
to do. And so yeah,
just to put just to put the context

308
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:17.680
here, we ad Voyage. We're
now releasing a new podcasts fiction series basically

309
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:23.200
every six weeks, and yeah,
that's really hard. And Jack knows because

310
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:29.599
they've done like seven million of these. It's really hard as a podcast,

311
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:32.920
which is an audio medium, which
means it's like the production of it is

312
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.039
actually obviously massively easier than a live
action production. So what you just said

313
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.000
terrifies me, Like, if I'm
the Marvel executive, that's so scary to

314
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.079
have to do that, and you
look at all the wheels that have to

315
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:49.039
be in motion to make that happen, and they started putting out stuff that

316
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:56.240
they had been working on in the
Shadows, Loki Wan Division, Great Hawkeye

317
00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.279
comes out. That one's okay,
but you can tell, oh, okay,

318
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.640
maybe we didn't have a fully fleshed
out story here. And then you

319
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:06.920
have more projects start to come out, or Love and Thunder, which I

320
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.960
think is the worst Marvel movie they've
put out. It was just absolutely terrible

321
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.680
in my humble opinion. I have
to add that that's my opinion. If

322
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:23.480
you love it, I'm sure sure
it's great. Yeah yeah, tell yeah

323
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.960
yeah. And so things started to
get worse and worse, and that the

324
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.079
reviews started to go, what is
this. We just came off of Infinity

325
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.079
War An Endgame and you know,
Iron Man and Spider Man and all these

326
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.000
great movies. Now we're making this, And so I think Marvel has said,

327
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.720
okay, they pulled the reins way
way way way back, and now

328
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:48.920
they're slowing down production and allowing Kevin
Figi, who's their head of operations,

329
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.480
to go in and overview everything and
kind of have his finger on the pulse

330
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.680
where they realized at Marvel that less
is more. So production has slowed way

331
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.359
way down and things are starting to
build in quality. Guardians of the Galaxy

332
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:07.279
Volume three, in my opinion,
being the best thing they've put out obviously,

333
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.440
So I'm hoping that things are starting
to go in that general direction.

334
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.119
That's in terms of production, how
things are going. They're starting to slow

335
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.799
down and try to make better projects, which hopefully they can win some of

336
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.480
their people back, they'd be great. But in terms of narrative, they're

337
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.759
going pretty big too. So if
you've ever been a big comic book fan,

338
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.920
you know, there's a lot of
different comics out there. I'm looking

339
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.519
in my room around here and all
the pops I have, and I'm seeing

340
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:41.480
at least fifty different ones just looking
around. Marvel is starting to do phases

341
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.640
and bring them all together, which
is kind of a massive scale. So

342
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:49.400
they have their street level heroes like
your she Hulk, your Spider Man,

343
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.079
you know, all those guys that
are that are going to show up on

344
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:59.000
the street level. Daredevil is coming
out with a new series which sounds really

345
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:00.279
really good. I don't know if
you were a fan of Daredevil back on

346
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:06.240
Netflix, if you were the one
that's coming in Daredevil Born Again is one

347
00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.160
of his most iconic runs that he's
ever done, and this is supposed to

348
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.559
be a pretty spectacular series. I
loved Um Punisher, the standalone Punisher with

349
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.720
burnthall the first season. The second
season, I am ashamed to admit I

350
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.880
have not finished. I have like
three episodes le after the second season,

351
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.599
and I think the reason why is
that in the second season they didn't get

352
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.920
the comic element of it quite right. And with The Punisher, if you

353
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.079
don't have that effective comic like release, it's so grim that it's a little

354
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.799
bit exhausting. In the first season, they had Micro and it worked great

355
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.920
because they had a really good chemistry
between him and the actor's name. He's

356
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.200
a great actor. He's on Bear
also in FX. I forget his name

357
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:55.960
anyway, Micro the guy who plays
Micro. Yeah, him and Burnthal had

358
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:59.519
an excellent chemistry that was humor.
They almost had this like weird like buddy

359
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.039
a couple relationship, right, and
it totally worked. So first season A

360
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.519
Punisher. That's like, for me, if you were to say, like

361
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.079
my personal favorite Marvel thing they've done
in the last ten years something, probably

362
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.839
yeah. Well so yeah, And
that's that's another challenge when you have not

363
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.880
Marvel being involved because Anthony Russo,
who's your antagonist from season one, rolls

364
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:26.039
over to season two and he's playing
an iconic Punisher villain named Jigsaw. Now

365
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.319
Jigsaw, if you ever watched Punish
your war Zone, that's probably more accurate.

366
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:37.000
He gets his face so maimed and
destroyed that when they put him back

367
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.400
together, he looks like a Jigsaw
puzzle. So that's where he gets the

368
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:44.119
name. And then they have this
pretty guy playing Anthony LaRusso who's got a

369
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.680
couple of scars, and they're calling
him Jigsaw, and it's like, Okay,

370
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:49.640
I think you're missing the point here. But so they have the street

371
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:55.000
level guys, which Punisher is confirmed
to be coming back, So Punisher,

372
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:59.599
Luke Cage, Jessica Jones hopefully please
please a new Iron Fist, not the

373
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.799
guy who played Finn Jones, not
him, Please not him. And then

374
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.559
you know, Doctor Strange bleeds into
that, and some of those other characters

375
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:08.359
that have kind of both sides,
like Spider Man, kind of goes to

376
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:14.319
that higher level of global issue,
you know, where your Captain America's show

377
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.960
up, your Iron Man's and then
you have your Galactic which is Guardians of

378
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:22.319
the Galaxy. Now they're starting to
implement that. They have Shield on Earth,

379
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.559
they had Sword out in space.
So they have all these different levels

380
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:33.759
that they're starting production on. And
so I think two things that could end

381
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.200
up being too big for their bridges
and people going I don't want to have

382
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:38.960
to watch this and this and this
and this. I don't want to have

383
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.839
to watch Captain Marvel to understand what's
going on with Daredevil. And that makes

384
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:48.400
sense. But then you have that
mindset that they're kind of catering to everybody.

385
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:55.119
So I like that personally. I
love the street level Marvel heroes.

386
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:56.519
I think they have a little bit
more to lose. I think they're a

387
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.440
little bit more damned of characters,
so that I identify with that, and

388
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:06.240
that's where you're starting to get that. But it's it's a lot. It's

389
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.519
just a lot to think about.
I wonder if you know when they made

390
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.920
on World war Z, there was
a big thing where they kept redoing the

391
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.960
ending and they brought in I want
to say it was Damon Lindeloff. They

392
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.319
had a bunch of guys like rewrite
the ending of that movie. And the

393
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:23.400
thing with World war Z is it
was so big and so the challenge was

394
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.640
how do you top it in the
final act? And the real stroke of

395
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.359
genius that they finally got to was
that you have to go small. And

396
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:33.839
so the last the last act of
the movie, they got rid of a

397
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.160
whole I think it was like a
whole Russian plot that like Matthew Fox was

398
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.960
in The Russian Zombie Slayer is credited
at the end of that movie, and

399
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.599
it's some huge actor. I'm not
not like in terms of presence, but

400
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.200
he looked very, very big and
his name was I think the Russian Zombie

401
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.160
Slayer, and I was so pumped
to see him because I saw him in

402
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.119
the credits, but he was never
in a frame of the movie. Tough

403
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.720
break for that guy. Um.
But yeah, at the end of the

404
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.359
movie, it's a very small sequence, right, and it's more about the

405
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.519
tension of something small and contained.
And I wonder if if you're Marvel,

406
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.160
like you said, like they built
two where it was like a cultural event,

407
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.680
right like Infinity World, and then
you're right, like how do you

408
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.559
start over? So I do wonder
if like if you start doing almost like

409
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:26.319
the Logan thing where it's like smaller
stories, character driven, like could they

410
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.880
do like a cable movie and it's
like, you know, just like very

411
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.799
character driven and it's like more for
you know that your audience is aging with

412
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.440
the movies, right. I think
if they made a cable movie today,

413
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.400
like an R rated cable movie,
you and I would go see it together,

414
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:47.880
like we would be so excited.
Especially with Josh Rowle and signing on

415
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:49.400
to play that character. I thought
he did such a good job. There

416
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:55.039
are so many characters that you could
watch, you know, a character driven

417
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.880
story or a little bit more focused
story on. And that's why when I

418
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:03.160
bring up the freet level guys,
they're perfect. You know. That's why

419
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.720
I love Punisher so much is when
he gets shot, he doesn't have the

420
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.160
serum to heal. He doesn't have
you know, he can't go to the

421
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:14.400
police and say, go arrest that
man, because nine times out of ten

422
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.359
they're looking to arrest him. To
My favorite thing in the history of that

423
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:23.240
they've done with The Punisher is there's
a moment where they're watching the news and

424
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.240
the news are like, yeah,
he's watching with Micro in the first season

425
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.640
Punisher, and then he's like,
yeah, there's a guy who's calling himself

426
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.240
the Punisher and he might have killed
like eight people or something like that,

427
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:41.599
And Birnthall laughs and he goes that
they know about Yeah, He's like,

428
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.240
he's like a serial killer. He's
like a lunatic. He's a crazy persons.

429
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.240
So yeah, I just I like
when they take more risks with it.

430
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:55.160
And I think that they're at a
point now where they've so dominated the

431
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.440
culture that they almost will have to
take some risks in order to stay as

432
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.279
relevant. Now there's where I say, you know what takes some narrative risks

433
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:08.400
here. I used to be back
in Phase one before thor Ragnarok. I

434
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.200
was the guy who was like,
man, they got it. They did

435
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:17.119
this in the comic. It's so
much better. And now that I watch

436
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:19.119
it, I'm like, well,
if I've read the comic, why would

437
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.559
I want to go see the adaptation. I'm for you. My wife is

438
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:29.079
a massive Disney fan. She loves
her all the original cartoons and now the

439
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.000
new live actions are coming out and
she wants to go see those, And

440
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.240
I'm like, why do you want
You know the story, you know everything

441
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.839
that's going to happen, Why do
you want to watch it? And I

442
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.160
kind of get it, and it
happened to me. In Thor Ragnarok,

443
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.240
there's a moment with Thor and Loki
where Loki is getting ready to do that

444
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.920
classic trope like you talked about,
where he's gonna betray Thor, and Thor

445
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.119
kind of sees it coming and stops
him and goes up to him, and

446
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.160
he's saying something to Loki. But
I swear this was Marvel's way of talking

447
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.160
to all of their fans, and
he goes, you know, we do

448
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:06.640
the same thing over and over again. I help you, you betray me,

449
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.480
and like, it's just it's boring. You gotta do something new,

450
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:15.480
you gotta reinvent yourself. And I
think that was Marvel's way of saying that

451
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:20.640
to people like me. But that's
something that they're going to have to do

452
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.799
narratively. They're gonna have to make
some big changes. They're gonna have to

453
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.000
throw some different plot points in there. But you know, it's that whole

454
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.119
lead a horse to water, but
you can't make a drink right, Like,

455
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.000
They've got to make the changes in
us as an audience have to realize

456
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:39.680
we're not always going to get exactly
what's in the comics, and that's okay.

457
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.319
I recently. I actually just before
this, I interviewed um. A

458
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:49.039
screenwriter's name is Richard Wank. He's
very accomplished. He wrote the Equalizer films.

459
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.519
He's really a credible writer and awesome. He wrote They're doing a Craven

460
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.599
the Hunter movie. Yes, they
are. He has he has taken some

461
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:00.880
major changes. Yeah. Well,
so talking to him, because he was

462
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.680
not shy about telling me, He's
like, yeah, no, I just

463
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.359
I just reached I just changed the
mythology of the character because it was like

464
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.240
I kind of needed to, like
I couldn't for him. It was like

465
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.240
a very obvious, like just the
narrative urgency. It was like I had

466
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.359
to make the story like I needed
that in order to make the story work

467
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:21.319
right. Yeah, And I do
think that again, like we've talked about,

468
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.319
right, it's like, if you're
not afraid to do more of that

469
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.119
with the right people doing it,
you gotta get the right person to do

470
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:30.200
it right. You can't do that
willy nilly. But if you're not afraid

471
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:35.440
to do more of that, I
do think that, Yeah. I mean

472
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.960
there's a shelf life on this,
right if they just can't stay the course.

473
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:38.839
And I don't think they know this
too. If they just stay the

474
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.480
course, this will burn itself out
in another five ten years. It just

475
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.480
will. So if they if they
continue invent being more inventive. I mean,

476
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.319
that's where to hop over to Star
Wars for half a second. That's

477
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.200
where it was like really sad that
the Boba Fett show came out and and

478
00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:58.119
I was like, man, this
is just like my dream since I was

479
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.000
a kid. I was like,
Oh, they should totally do a Boba

480
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:01.400
Fete show. I'd be amazing.
And I didn't. I never. I

481
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:07.880
don't watch one episode because uniformly everyone
said it was not good, it didn't

482
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:10.079
work, and it was like,
well, why wasn't. It's almost like

483
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:15.280
the like the fumble at the one
yard line of all time, right,

484
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:20.400
it's like, just make hard are
super violent show? That's it? Just

485
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.960
thinking unapologetic. It's it sounds like
that's not what it was, and I

486
00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:28.639
just don't understand why it was.
It was Boba Fett turning over a new

487
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.199
leaf. And here's the thing,
though, that's what everyone wants. Everybody

488
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.440
wants to see the most notorious bounty
hunter in the galaxy decided that he wants

489
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:43.599
to be a philanthropist. It's just
it's it's it was hard to watch that

490
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.639
one. But I think Star Wars
is going to benefit from Marvel's mistakes.

491
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:52.880
I think they're going to see all
the things that they've done and do what

492
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.159
works and leave what doesn't. And
I think and Or is a great example

493
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:00.159
of that. I don't know if
anybody out there is seen and Or.

494
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:04.199
I cannot recommend that show to you
enough. It's so cool that you liked

495
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:07.199
it as much as I liked it. That's like the nextest point where our

496
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.119
fingers touched in the taste, because
yeah, it's like and Or to me

497
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.480
is like what more do you want? Right? It gives you everything you

498
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:19.519
can need. It gives you Star
Wars stuff, It gives you like adult

499
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.159
stuff, It has real emotional weight
to it. It's actually about something.

500
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.559
It's entertaining. It's just like everything
you can want. That's all I'm looking

501
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:29.480
for, is is there and and
Or. That's the thing that I've said

502
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.119
about Star Wars for years, as
I'm tired of just the two guys with

503
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:34.480
the laser swords meeting in the middle, you know what I mean. It

504
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:37.639
was always Jedi Saith, Jedi Saith. I'm like I don't care. This

505
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.840
is this is taking place in a
galaxy far far away, and we're focusing

506
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:45.559
on five or six people. Let's
let's take a look at the world.

507
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.880
And and Or fleshed out the world
of Star Wars so well. I mean,

508
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:54.480
they really did make so many other
galaxies and so many other places feel

509
00:35:54.519 --> 00:36:00.280
lived in and see the impact of
what was happening in the galaxy. See

510
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.719
when Darth Vader in the Emperor Over. One of the best parts of the

511
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:08.840
whole thing of Andor is when ums
Casson Andor right, I'm gonna lose my

512
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:15.360
nerd creditualified for him. Um,
He's like, we finished the job.

513
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:16.920
I just want to go to the
beach, man, I just want That's

514
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:20.000
it. I don't care about any
of this. I just want to go

515
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.519
to the beach. And literally he
can't even just go to the beach.

516
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:28.320
He gets arrested, it throw in
prison or for standing there. He does

517
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.480
literally nothing, and he goes to
this prison where they're like, yeah,

518
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.320
you're here for the rest of your
life. He's like, I literally didn't

519
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:38.519
do anything. I was just standing
there and they arrested me. And it's

520
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:45.079
so powerful because it's you totally understand
how he would be radicalized. And it's

521
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:50.800
really if you actually dig deeper into
that, that's basically how anybody gets radicalized.

522
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:54.559
That's how like, actual terrorists get
radicalized. And these characters are terrorists.

523
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:59.280
They are that's literally what they are. So it's it's actually quite radical

524
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:01.760
if you really stop and think about
what they're telling you. But it's done

525
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.559
in such a way you're like,
oh, this makes perfect sense. Yeah,

526
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.800
oh I would do that too,
you know. You see that and

527
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.800
you're like, oh, they were
just gonna throw me in jail forever.

528
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:15.800
Yeah, Day one of breaking out
starts right then. I don't care if

529
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:17.159
I need to blow up this place. Let me get out of here.

530
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.199
If I'm in jail with Andy Serkis, shit's going down. First of all,

531
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:28.559
he's really be a bad time story
every night. We should wrap up

532
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.960
because we're gonna go way over.
But what is what is like the next

533
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:36.559
Well, here's here's a good one. What is something that's out right now

534
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:38.440
that is Marvel that maybe not that
many people have seen him, it was

535
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:43.920
not as popular that you like,
the people should watch Werewolf night. That's

536
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.719
that's my biggest recommendation right now.
It's it's like an hour. It was

537
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.400
a Halloween special. It builds into
the supernatural side of Marvel that I think

538
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:54.639
they're getting ready to do. That's
a great one. All right, cool

539
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:58.400
Jack, thank you so much for
coming on The show Man. That is

540
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:01.880
a show for today. I want
to thank everybody for listening until next time.

541
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:15.960
Bye bye, see yeah. Mm
hm m hm m m h m hm