Richard Wenk, Writer of The Equalizer 1, 2, and 3, On The Lost Art Of Great Character Work

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Voyage. Welcome to watch this tonight. I'm your host, Dan Bettimore.

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I'm a producer, writer of film
and television and now a podcast producer.

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And despite having every streaming service,
I never know what to watch. So

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anytime I watch something good, I
talk about it on this show. This

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way, you'll never have the same
problem I do. I watched this tonight.

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There's always something good to watch.
Let's get started, all right today

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on the show. I am incredibly
excited to welcome screenwriter Richard Wink to the

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program. Richard has written, amongst
many things, Sixteen Blocks, The Mechanic,

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all three Equalizer films, The Magnificent
Seven, The Protege, You've Got

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Fast, Charlie with James conn and
his final film coming up. Welcome to

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the show, Richard. Well,
thanks for having me and pleasure to be

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here. So I wanted to share
with you why I have. Like I

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I the first time I signed with
an agent myself as a writer, they

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were like, what what do you
want to do? Like, what's your

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dream career basically? And I was
like, I basically your career? Like

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literally I think at the time,
I think at the time Equalizer was just

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about to come out and I had
read the script. The script was sort

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of passed around, um, you
know, within you know, I came

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up with a lot of people who
were like assistance to lit agents and people

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like that, and I was a
development executive myself, so you could get

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your hands on the script. It
was your script, right and um.

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And I remember reading it. And
there's a moment in the first act of

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The Equalizer where Denzel's talking about the
hundred books, right and um. And

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he talks about that, you know, his wife passed away and he's reading

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them now. He didn't have time
before she died, and now he's reading

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them, and he says something effective. And I looked back at it.

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Actually, I wouldn't found him.
Look back at it. Something effective.

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It'll give us something to talk about. And I remember very vividly reading that.

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And for me, how I took
it was he's saying that when he

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dies and he sees her in the
afterlife, the thing that he didn't do

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while she was alive, he's doing
it now so that he can see her

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in the afterlife and be able to
talk to her about it. Right.

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And I was so moved by that, and I thought it was so beautiful

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and it's not like it's in a
way and this is going to sound like

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a really harsh indictment of where we're
at now in film, but in a

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way, it's kind of everything that's
missing for me and the majority of films

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now in the sort of action thriller
space is that kind of soul and that

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kind of like real like care to
character and so anyway, it just had

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such a profound I stopped reading the
script, like I read first thirty pages

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that it was so good. I
was like, I don't want to ruin

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it for myself and I'll just wait
and watch it when it comes out of

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a movie. But that was one
of the big things that I wanted to

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talk to you about. Is this
idea of the sort of invisible craft,

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right, is that, like,
that's what I find so impressive at your

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writing is that it's not anything flashy
or if it's calling attention to itself.

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It's just kind of good, clean, old fashioned craft. And the power

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of that it's it's it's all comes
through character. It's it's very difficult to

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write. I think we passed in
the eighties and maybe the mid nineties story

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movies, you know, where plot
drives the movie and action fits into the

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story and it's just you know,
some visceral stuff. What's interesting about the

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scene you bring up, which is
one of my favorite scenes, is that,

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Um, he never says his wife
died. She recognizes in his eyes

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that he's a widower because he doesn't
offer that, and that is that's the

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moment where he can with her,
because he doesn't really connect with many people,

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right. He's a sort of a
m a ronan and a guy,

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an isolating guy. UM. Very
charming and very fine, but he's got

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a past, and he's got which
we never explained, and he's got he's

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reading a book and he only tells
her that after she realizes that he's you

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know, because he's got a wedding
ring, so that she she was able

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to see past all that. UM
put her in that position where he opened

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up a little bit to her and
I was able to say that that line

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to her. He never says it
to anybody else. M The only other

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person in the movie that knows what
happened, um was Melissa Leo's character,

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Susan Plumber. So um Uh.
It's one of those things where the movie

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itself and here's maybe something that's interesting. I had have been offered The Equalizer

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five years earlier from another producer who
were named nameless because he's in prison,

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and I passed because I thought it
was a perfect television show. I thought,

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oh, you know, helping people
and all that other stuff, and

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I didn't really like the Jaguar anything
else. But five years later, Todd

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Black and Jason Blumenthal, Escape Artist, called and you know, mentioned that

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they had the rights to this and
would i'd be interested in and I said

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no. And he said, well, we actually worked with Denzel Washington and

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he's agreed to read it without an
offer. And I thought, oh,

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well, writing a script that Denzel
Washington will read, it's sort of a

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step up, isn't it. Right, So so you know, it was

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really basically a spec script. It
was basically And I said to them,

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I said, look, the only
thing I would keep from that that this

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project, which is the title.
I wouldn't keep anything else. I said,

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I think this is an origin story. I think it's a different character.

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I think it's I think it's it's
it's a character driven movie. But

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as Sony as as a Sony movie, you know, they want big movies

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and they want you know plot,
and they want, you know, big

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steaks. So what's interesting about when
you said that you read thirty pages and

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you stopped. You don't mind,
I'll tell you the story because it's kind

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of wild. So I started writing
the movie. In the first fifty pages

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are exactly what's in the movie,
right word for word, scene for scene,

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beat for beat. But then the
movie started as I was writing it,

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veering into the sony world of you
know, he's chasing an old nemesis,

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a terrorist or something or I can't
remember what it was. And I

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had written some really great scenes,
fall off your chair, scenes they call

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him. But it took me down
a path I just was bored with.

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And I also happened to watch Safe
House and I thought, hey, it's

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kind of the same movie. All
right, it's turning in the same movie.

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So I called the producers and I
said, I got to throw out

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these thirty five pages. I'm going
to keep the fifty. I'm going to

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start again from there on. Oh
you can't. They're the greatest and the

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best and so action. And I
don't know Denzel Washington at this point.

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I've never met him. I've never
spoken to him. I just know his

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movie. And I said, for
whatever reason, I said, I said,

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oh, I think he's going to
read the first fifty pages and love

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it, and then he's gonna get
the page fifty one. He's gonna throw

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it in the pile with all the
nose. And that kind of freaked him

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out a little bit. And they
said, all right, we'll tell you

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what. We'll make a deal with
You write it how you want to do

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it, but if we don't like
it, you have to put that stuff

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back in and finish it. I
said, okay, that's fair. So

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I wrote the movie as as you've
seen, as the script as as it

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is. That that kept the character
movie that I loved. So they got

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it. They liked it. They
liked it a lot, and they decided

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they gave it to Denzel. And
because my manager knows Denzel's agent and I

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got him his first job, I
got him his job as an agent,

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we were all waiting to see what
Denzel Washington would think of this script.

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And this is not I'm not making
any of this up, but yeah,

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he called my My agent called Denzel's
agent, said, well, what's happening

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and he said, he just called
me and he said, I'm on page

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fifty, tell me the next fifty
year just as good. And he said,

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they're better. And he read it
and called up Todd and said,

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Hi, this is Robert mccaull.
When do we art And and he goes,

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And by the way, it's not
a development deal, it's this is

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the script I'm shooting. So again, instinctually, you're right that we were

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in a we're in a we're losing
sight of the fact that most everything derives

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from character. And if you if
you care about the character, he can

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do anything. He can stick a
corkscrew in a guy's mouth and and uh

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and kill him and women will still
love him. And so it was a

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learning experience for me, you know. I there was my instincts at the

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time. I had just done expendables
to um uh and the mechanic um and

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uh, well they were they were
good scripts. UM. I was really

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looking to do something a little more
that had a little more uh depth to

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it, a little more meaning to
it, I guess is what I and

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I had read in the Wall Street
Journal did a gallop pole that published a

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gallop Pole then asked Americans to list
the five things that would make your life

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better and it was not. And
here's the answer. The answer was not

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health, it was not wealth,
it was not love. It was justice.

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And I thought, oh, that's
what this guy is. He's he's

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the guy you want living next door
to you when you can't do something about

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something, and he'll do it for
you. And that's a kind of a

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wish for filment movie. But you
imbew it with a real guy, a

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real guy who has a real past
and a real heartache and a real because

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violence is he knows secondhand. But
the other the dealing with his wife and

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his and the loss and the idea
that he doesn't know where to put himself.

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So the movie really is about binding
your purpose, right because by the

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end of the movie he realizes this
is what I can do, right.

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So you picked up on my favorite
scene, by the way, So yeah,

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you know, it's so interesting the
idea of writing for an actor.

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I remember I was hired to write
something for Ken Won Nabe. It was

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a Japanese company and the whole thing
was basically, we have to get Ken

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Won Nabe. I remember a certain
point I asked them, I said,

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what happens if Ken Wan Nabe doesn't
want to do it? And they said,

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well, we don't want to talk, we don't want to think about

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that. Yes, and by the
way, Kennon Abby said, no,

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we did not get made. But
it is interesting that, like, and

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for you as a writer too,
because I mean, obviously you're you were

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incredibly accomplished already by that point,
but even still, I would imagine when

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you sit down and like, it's
almost like do you have to shut that

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part of your brain off where you're
like, I'm writing it for Denzel,

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but I don't want it to like
I don't want to be paralyzed by that.

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I don't want to let it drive
too much of what I'm doing.

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Or is it the other way?
We were like, you're trying to learn

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about him and what he would be
into and your sense of him. I

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would say it's that it's the latter. Um, I'm not afraid of that.

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I in the Mechanic. They they
when I was brought onto the Mechanic,

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they had I think there were thirty
scripts over twenty years that they tried

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to do the Mechanic, and they
were they were all over them. I

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didn't read them, but I was
told, you know, he was in

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the army, he was this and
that. But I'm like, I don't

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know what was wrong with the first
movie. I just think you just need

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to update it, and you need
to, you know, make character.

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And one of the things that they
were running into was that they couldn't cast

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the Ben Foster role. It couldn't
get anybody. It was the script they

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had just that wasn't any even it
and again not making it up. They

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said, we really want Ben Foster
for this part. So I wrote the

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part for Ben Foster. I mean, I don't know him, I know

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his work, I know what he
can do, I know his what I

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see in him when I see in
the movies, and what I suspect he

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has in him. And so that's
what I wrote. I wrote a character

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that had enough depth and enough place
in the movie that he said yes.

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So I don't mind that. I
don't have any problem writing for somebody.

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In fact, sometimes it helps,
you know, it's funny, it makes

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me think of, you know,
in my little world. It's the smaller

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version of this. We had a
project where we could not cast exactly what

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you're describing, Ben Foster, the
second lead right right. We offered it

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to like ten people. They all
passed and Finally I said, all right,

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let's rewrite the introduction scene. We'll
leave the rest of it the same,

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but let's just rewrite the introduction scene. And it was a Western,

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but I basically did the scene from
The Godfather when James conn beats up the

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guy who's hidden woman. Right,
And even though this was a villain,

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that to introduce him that way with
a scene that you actually were kind of

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rooting for him. And the next
person we offered it to say yes,

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which was Round Probleman and he was
great in the movie. But yeah,

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it's so interesting that I think that
an underrated part of this, and obviously

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a great skill of yours, is
it's all predicated on getting the star to

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say yes, right, bottom line, that's what runs the bottom line.

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There's the bottom line. And so
it's like, if you have if you

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can get to a place where you
can write the role that will get the

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star to say yes, that is
an invaluable skill. And do you think

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that there's anything that people sort of
don't like? The big thing that comes

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to mind for me is like,
I do think that there is a misconception

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that stars want to play the coolest
guy, right, he's perfect he's awesome,

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And I think it's quite the opposite. I think the most good actors

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want to play somebody who's not that
and they I think they want to play

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a real person and they want to
flaws and all right and a well written

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character. Also, they don't want
to play the same character, you know,

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the good actors, right, Um, you know, you don't see

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Denzel playing you know, other than
an Equalizer's trilogy. He basically you know,

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he goes from plight to you know, unstoppable to this and that you

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know, he finds something that interests
him, um that he hasn't done before,

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Um that he can um flex his
muscle. Song. So I think

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a lot of good actors, Tom
Hanks and Robert Downey and go on to

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Leonardo and all those, all those
guys, Brad, they want to play

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a part that that has depth and
richness, But they also don't want to

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play the same guy. And that's
some of the mistakes they make. It.

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We'll get Brad because he did we
know he can do it, and

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he goes, well, you're not
going to do it. He doesn't need

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to do it, and um,
so it's it's a it's a it's It's

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one of the things I always tell
young screenwriters. It's like, when you

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start to write a script, who's
in it? Because that's all that's gonna

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matter in the end, right,
I mean, it's got to be good,

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and it's got to be a good
story. It's got to work structurally,

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it's got to have, you know, a story or the structure that

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that's interesting in the world, that's
interesting. But ultimately speaking, who's gonna

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be in it? Who's gonna play
this guy or that girl? And um

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uh And if you don't think about
that, um, you're doing yourself a

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disservice, I think, because it's
just the way the industry works. It's

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it is, it is what it
is. There's um there's a movie that

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they made in twenty twenty one.
It's called Without Remorse, and it was

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um. One of the writers was
Taylor Sheridan, directed by Stefano Soldim I

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was an incredible director, starring Michael
Jordan. A lot of really really talented

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people worked on this movie. And
you know, anybody who works in our

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business notes that, like, you
cannot judge the final film. You don't

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know what was in the script would
change, all right, But I remember

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watching that movie, which I was
very excited for it, and everything that

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didn't work about that movie to me
is everything that works about your writing,

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which is to say that that movie
felt impersonal money. I don't know what

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it was really like about underneath the
plot. I had no investment in the

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character. And on the surface,
if you just tell somebody this is what

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happens in the movie, you'd think, well, why doesn't that work?

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That seems like that would work.
But where do you think people sort of

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lose their way with that stuff where
it can well. Audiences truly don't care

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about plot. It's white noise to
them. They once you attach yourself to

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a person, a real human being, you can take them anywhere and you

241
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can go through anything. But they
didn't do that in that movie, right.

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It was just a very visceral action
e Tom Clancy kind of you know,

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cool stuff with nobody in it.
Just an empty movie in the end,

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right, because it was they focused
on that. And I just think

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it's that those those days again,
back in the eighties and the nineties were

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now that those movies did well.
Um, but I think the audiences are

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smarter today. They want to invest, they want to feel, they want

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to They want to be a part
of right. And they're not a part

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of like you know, heists and
things. They're they're part of human beings

250
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and why there's why this guy is
doing heist or why this guy is you

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know, working in home Mark and
all this stuff there's and by the way,

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the other the other thing that a
lot of movies don't do is they

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don't have any mystery, and the
audience is interestingly enough. You know,

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I was fortunate to be on the
set and to work with Denzel and work

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with Antoine on all the movies,
and been to the editing room and said

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at all the test screenings and on
the first equalizer they tested at once and

257
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it scored so high that they it
was the highest R rated movie in Sony

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history. They locked it. But
when the focus group happened, one of

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their favorite things was they didn't know
stuff. They didn't know what he did

260
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in the past, They didn't know
what happened to his wife. Did she

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get killed, did she died of
of of sickness? How long ago?

262
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All that stuff. They loved that
part of it because their imagination there,

263
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we've all experienced loss, we've all
all experienced heartbreak, and we're watching a

264
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man with whose heart is broken so
in in that part of his life,

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so that they can identify with that, especially women. They were the highest

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scoring people and yet he was.
It was the most violent movie, you

267
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know, compared to most of the
movies I've done. So Antoine is genius

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at at at violent. It's in
action. Um. But yet the women

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forgave that part because of that.
So I think that when you when you

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do these movies, uh, and
they come to you and they say,

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hey, we want to do you
know a guy about a hitman or something,

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It's like, well, you know, none of us are hitman and

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none of us you know, have
killed anybody. Most of us anybody,

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Um, I happen't. But um, what they can attach themselves to is

275
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the human nature of the of their
lives, right. Um. They're their

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own personal issues and their own the
hurdles to overcome that we have to overcome.

277
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Um, you forget that. And
if you if you do forget it,

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you you you're you're You've done yourself. You're down on the ladder a

279
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little bit, and you're gonna it's
gonna be hard to keep the audience engaged.

280
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Yeah, it's so interesting that for
the third Equalizer, Dakota has reunited

281
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with Denzel because Man on Fire is
totally a movie where if I blink,

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I just think you wrote it like
it's like it really feels like of a

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piece with a lot of the stuff
that you've done. It's my one of

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my favorite movies, and Brian Heavilyn
is one of my favorite writers. So

285
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it was really remarkable to watch them
together, the ease in which they and

286
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also the history because there's a there's
a twist to her character that I don't

287
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think you see coming that connects everything. And so again, she could have

288
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been just a CIA agent working on
us, be part of the story and

289
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probably would have passed. But she
wasn't. Just that she was something else.

290
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So again, part of my job
is to make sure or try to

291
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make sure that there's there's things in
there, there's tasty things in there for

292
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them to hook onto and to play
um. And it's the one thing that

293
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a lot of writers either forget or
don't do. And uh, and then

294
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you get you know, those those
Amazon movies or those you know movies,

295
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and you just go, I can
I can stop this anywhere and pick it

296
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up anywhere. It's just I want
to make sure I touched on something you

297
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said earlier, which is about not
explaining everything. And you know, I

298
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mean I personally think this whole narrative
that like, oh, development executives give

299
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stupid notes or whatever is way overblown. And I you know, I've known

300
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a ton of really smart development executives, but I will say that a note

301
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that is very common that you'll get
from either producers you're working with or executives

302
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.000
or whatever, is like, well, so can you so how come how

303
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come this happen? How come that
happen? Or should we make it more

304
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that? Yeah? And so how
do you sort of a key too that?

305
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:04.759
Right? Because you don't want to
suddenly be like, well, let's

306
00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.640
have a scene or we explain why
this guy bought a pink shirt. You

307
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know, like let's say I'm going
to the store picking out the Well,

308
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I've been fortunate that a Equaliser was
a spec script, so they didn't have

309
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any say. They basically got a
script with a star and a budget and

310
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producers and do you want to make
it or not? And you know,

311
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God bless Denzel Washington and who said
that's I'm making that movie not don't don't

312
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start bucking with it. So um, same with the second one. They

313
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basically greenlit a develop you know,
the development of the second movie on the

314
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night of the test screening of the
first movie. And I had already in

315
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my head had seen realized that the
movie, if there was going to be

316
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And by the way, Denzel has
never done a sequel to anything and was

317
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.880
not going to do a sequel to
Dequalizer. And except what he told me

318
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was, well, you know,
the only people are going to tell us

319
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anything of the audience that they want
to see him again. And I said,

320
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well, all all characters, all
most of the movies other than like

321
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A Mission Impossible James Bond, like
Born m I'm forgetting a few you want

322
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.200
to see them again. Right,
It's not so much the story or the

323
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world or anything else. You want
to see Jason Bourne and what happens to

324
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him, and and and and that's
why you keep going back to see those

325
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movies, because they're so well done
in terms of character and in terms of

326
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.480
investing in that character. So you
know that that's again, you know,

327
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every every studio wants a franchise,
every studio wants you know, uh,

328
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you know, a tent pole or
whatever that they can do, you know,

329
00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:52.000
three or four of them. Um. But you know, other than

330
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a Marvel movie, you you basically
you're you better write a character they want

331
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to see again. Um. And
that's that. That, fortunately, was

332
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what happened, you know, wasn't
in my mind. I had three in

333
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my head. I had three I
had. I had he finds his purpose,

334
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he finds his peace, and in
the third one he finds his place

335
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at home. So that was sort
of in my head. If I could

336
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:27.160
tell this story in in in three
movies, that's how it would be.

337
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And fortunately that's how it is.
Um, just got fortunate. They don't

338
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always happen that way. And it's
not because of anything much I did,

339
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.480
other than I think people want to
see him. They want to see him

340
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.720
do those things. They want to
see what happened to him and where he

341
00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.319
is now. I mean, he's
a limp driver now, right, doesn't

342
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.880
even work at home, already destroyed
it. So where does he do now

343
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.279
he's a limp driver. Well,
that's great because he gets to meet people

344
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in the backseat and he gets to
help people. So it's it's it's one

345
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.160
of those things where in terms of
the studio executives. Yes, I got

346
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:11.839
a lot of that on Craven because
that was assignment, and I just didn't

347
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.319
do it. I just I just
I just didn't write it. And they

348
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.799
kept saying, well, you know, we're gonna tell this back then I'm

349
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.119
like, first of all, I
don't even like the character. We're gonna

350
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:23.720
have to change the character. We're
gonna have to make them something different,

351
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:30.680
you know, And I did.
I rewrote the mythology of Craven the Hunter.

352
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.400
Um I got fired, I got
replaced. Let's say I got replaced

353
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on that movie by who knows how
many people. And I don't even know

354
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.079
how the movie. It's coming out
this year, I think, so I'm

355
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.839
interested to see what they did with
it. But um, I just didn't

356
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.160
do it. I can't do it. I don't. I don't believe in

357
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.240
it. And I don't think any
writer should write something because somebody said we

358
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.200
need to have that. Because I
did get a lot of notes like that,

359
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.119
what's the back where's their backstory?
Right, I'm like, I don't

360
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.960
think I care about it. Backstory, Yeah, right, I don't know

361
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.759
Jason Bourne's backstory till the final movie. Till the final scenes in the final

362
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.359
movie. Yeah. Oh so,
and that kept me wanting to see more.

363
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.839
Yeah. Um, I have this
thing I've I've talked about this show

364
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.279
before about dad movies, movies that
your dad would would watch, and I

365
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.000
would say, you're almost like the
king of dad movies. Stuff that you

366
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:27.359
made. I think it's a good
thing. Okay, did your dad get

367
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:30.759
to watch like when you as you
started to have success, did your get

368
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.799
dad get to watch these movies that
you made? You got to see them?

369
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.279
He got all the way up to
the first Equalizer. He was at

370
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.559
the premiere in New York at Equalizer. So that that's that that meant a

371
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:44.880
lot to me. You know,
he got to go to see sixteen Blocks,

372
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which is the white personal favorite movie
and uh an Equalizer. Um so

373
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he saw the you know, the
the progress that I made through the years

374
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:03.720
as a screenwriter. That's bright.
Yeah yeah yeah. So as we um

375
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:07.759
I was gonna, I had had
a question written down to say, oh,

376
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:10.119
you know, it's pretty cool that
you managed to be the soul writer

377
00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:14.319
and all these movies and obviously mentioned
that you were U. It's interesting I've

378
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:17.960
noticed I interviewed the guys who wrote
this Apple plus a movie called Sharper,

379
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and I asked them about rewrites and
you know, staying on the whole time,

380
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:25.200
and because it's a big cast,
a lot of stars and stuff,

381
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:26.799
and they were like, yeah,
Julianne Moore. They're like, that's the

382
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.240
answer. Basically, Julianne Moore had
our back from day one. That's the

383
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.200
reason that they shopped our script.
They didn't fuck with it. And I've

384
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:38.279
heard this story again and again,
right the value of having your champion that

385
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.559
nobody can mess with for you as
a writer, the value of that to

386
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:45.799
you and getting your vision out there. I think there's more to it.

387
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.799
I think that well. First of
all, I started out as a director,

388
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.480
right I started directed Roger Carman movie, and then I directed an independent

389
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:59.960
movie with Any Garcia and Any McDowell. So I immediately was already a collaborative

390
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.480
kind of person. So I'm not
precious about anything I write. If the

391
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.039
one has a better idea or bumping
for I would sit with Denzel on an

392
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:12.559
equalizer every day for six weeks and
he would come to my little cardboard desk

393
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:17.440
and he'd sit down and he'd pull
out the first draft. Now there's been

394
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:21.359
four or five different drafts based on
budget and schedules and everything else. And

395
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.279
he'd go through it and he'd say, you know what happened to this?

396
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:27.920
And I said, well, they
didn't want to pay for the softball uniforms.

397
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:30.279
He just got up out of his
chair and walked over there. He

398
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.000
just came back, sat down and
said, it's okay, softball's back in

399
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.599
it. And by the way,
I think there's so there's that, but

400
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:45.319
there's also the idea that you're a
collaborative person. I think people can tell

401
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.480
that you're not. A lot of
people are afraid of writers. That's why

402
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.920
they're not on the sets. That's
not why they're not invited into the editing

403
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:57.559
room or you know, having you
know anything. They feel they're precious about

404
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:03.000
their stuff, and sometimes they should
be. Sometimes, you know, directors

405
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:08.240
and and people will will mess with
their movie and it's bad choices. Um.

406
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:12.480
But by most part, if you're
if you're a collaborative, you get

407
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:18.039
to participate in that dialogue. So
I always would go to Denzel's house and

408
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:22.720
sit there and we go to the
script and he would say, I don't

409
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:29.279
understand this. How do I play
this? I say, well, I

410
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:30.279
don't know how do you play that? And he goes, well, you

411
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.960
can't play that. I said,
how do I play? I think this

412
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.759
and I'm like this, and I'm
like oh, I said, well,

413
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.440
that's really written for the studios,
so they understand it. You can do

414
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.440
whatever you want, right, but
when I write it, so there's two

415
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.039
scripts. There's a script that they
they read and they they read and they

416
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.839
green light, and then there there's
a script that they made, So you

417
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:53.440
have to understand that when you're writing
it. Like I don't say I write

418
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:00.039
uh scripts, I write movies.
When I when you've read I guess Equalizer,

419
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.799
it reads like a movie, doesn't
read like a script. I don't

420
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.319
use a lot of exterior interior,
you know, those kind of things,

421
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:12.039
cut twos and stuff like that.
It reads sort of like you know,

422
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:17.559
I'm telling your story. It's very
clean. It's clean and visual and has

423
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:22.759
visceral stuff in it, and the
fight, the action has emotion and it's

424
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.240
clean and like you said, so, I'm thinking of it as a movie,

425
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.480
not as a script. And I
used to write them as scripts.

426
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.720
I used to write them as I
started out. You'd write these movies for

427
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:41.079
the executives, just like the scripts. They read, and I realized I

428
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.200
was just doing myself at the service
because they all read the same. Soon

429
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.400
as you just say exterior Broadway,
everybody sees the same Broadway. But if

430
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.839
you describe your Broadway right in a
different way and you don't say broadway,

431
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.519
you say, you know the man
with the push card is going down the

432
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.839
street, that the band with the
push guard is your is your slugline?

433
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:06.039
I want to read, what does
that mean? Where is he? And

434
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:10.319
then you suddenly realize he's in New
York City and he's so I think that

435
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.079
that's a skill that people learn.
I just read a lot of scripts Coen

436
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:21.680
Brothers, um m m knight.
I love his work. He uses no

437
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:27.079
descriptions in his scripts, so I
kind of call from people, even William

438
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.559
Goldman, who who is the king
of that right? You know? It

439
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.000
basically reads like a movie. Yea. And so I realized that when you

440
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:40.119
do yourself a serve when you start
writing him like final draft scripts, yea.

441
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.559
And by the way, so that's
the movie that they that's the thing

442
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.400
they get and they say, wow, this is a great movie. Let's

443
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:52.079
let's let's get you know, Chris
Pratt to be in it. You know,

444
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.680
and and then you have to go
back and you start making it into

445
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:00.319
the you know, the the mechanical
version of it, right, who already

446
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.920
to put in next two years and
they do all that for you. Yeah,

447
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.960
but so there's two versions, and
don't be afraid of writing it that

448
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:16.599
way because every executive, every studio
chief, and every per actor appreciates that

449
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:22.839
reading something that's readable. Yeah,
it's opposed to things I've read. It

450
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:28.640
just seems this looks like everything else
I've read it. So yeah, I

451
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:30.960
think you know something you mentioned earlier, maybe as far as like working with

452
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.559
the actors and stuff. It really
made me think of the most recent episode

453
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.519
of Succession. There's a moment where
Ship is talking to her mom and she's

454
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.799
a strange from her mom. She
hadn't seen her wife yes, and the

455
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.799
mom comes up to her and she
goes, oh. A Ship kind of

456
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:52.359
like reacts and it's like oh,
And basically what she's saying is, I

457
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:54.759
can tell you're pregnant immediately. I
don't need you to tell me. I

458
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.279
don't need you to do it.
Immediate's by looking at you, I can

459
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:00.799
tell you're pregnant. And no,
no point in their conversation is the word

460
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:07.000
pregnancy, baby, anything used,
And it's so like, you really have

461
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.719
to have confidence in yourself as a
writer in the actors. But they can

462
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:15.400
do that. They don't need you
to say, you know, like mom,

463
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.079
I'm pregnant, right, Like,
so that of doing less, of

464
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.639
the confidence to do less basically,
and also the confidence to listen to the

465
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:30.960
actors. Again on the first Equalizer, Melissa Leo came in maybe three weeks

466
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:35.719
into our shooting and came into the
came to the monitors and sat next to

467
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.320
me, and she said, I
love the script and everything. I want

468
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.360
to talk to you about something.
And I said, I know I have

469
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:44.840
to do and she does if you
watch the movie, she I know I

470
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.760
have to deliver all this exposition,
right, She yes, she's the one

471
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:54.360
who basically tells us everything about Teddy
and Pushkin and all whatever that stuff is.

472
00:34:55.159 --> 00:35:00.280
And she goes, I just I
just would like it to feel because

473
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.639
I know him more familiar. Right. That was her. That was her

474
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:09.119
comment to me. And I went
home to my hotel and I rewrote that

475
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:14.400
stuff right with that in my mind, and I sent it to her and

476
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.039
I can't tell you how delighted she
was hugged me. That someone listened to

477
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:23.119
her and did it and understood it. And that's my job, right,

478
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:30.079
She's an Academy Award winning actress.
It's my job to listen to her.

479
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.440
She instinctually is going, I can
say this, but it's it's pretty dry,

480
00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:39.119
and you're missing the fact that I've
worked with this man for you know,

481
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.679
twenty years, so we don't have
to say it like this. I

482
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:47.760
can say it very shorthandedly. And
so that's my You know, again,

483
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.480
a lot of writers don't get that
opportunity. They're not around. You know

484
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:57.199
that the movie goes on without them, and they shoot it and they change

485
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.400
it and they do stuff, and
actors changed it and and you're not there.

486
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.960
But if you get the opportunity to
be there, and if you are

487
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:08.320
collaborative and not precious, that's the
other part of your job is so listen,

488
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.239
right. The Denzel doesn't want to
say that I had a line I

489
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:16.480
used and I had to take it
out of Equalizer and put it in Jack

490
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:21.320
Reacher because he wouldn't say it.
And that was when they kept asking him

491
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:24.639
who who are you and right?
And the answer was I'm the guy he

492
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:29.960
didn't count them right, and he
said an that sounds like a Bruce Willis

493
00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:31.559
line. I said, no,
no, it's good, it's good.

494
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:35.480
So he did it once and he
looked at me, said that's for you,

495
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.480
but I do it again. It's
not in the movie, but it's

496
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:43.000
it's in the opening scene in Jack
Reacher. Interesting. Yeah, so so

497
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.159
you but you But but I listened. It wasn't like I got all hissy

498
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:51.079
about it and said, you know, you're ruining the movie. You know,

499
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.360
that's the great line and everything else, and it's like he doesn't want

500
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:58.039
to say it. It's Denzel Washington. He's the greatest actor of the twentieth

501
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:02.519
century. I think he would know
more than me. So before we wrap

502
00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:07.079
up, because I so appreciate your
time. I'm very excited obviously to see

503
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.079
Budge with three, but I might
be equally excited, frankly, to see

504
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:14.960
James Cohn's last role, because I
remember James conn before he died, he

505
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.639
was interviewed and somebody asked him.
He was like, I just want one

506
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.320
more, like I can really act, because you know, he had gotten

507
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.800
to a point in his career were
just sort of doing low budget movies and

508
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:27.000
you got the sense he wasn't getting
the opportunity. Have you You presumably have

509
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.760
seen the movie Fast Charted and that's
his last performance, right, yes,

510
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:34.679
wow. Um, I can tell
you that he's brilliant in it. I

511
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:39.199
can tell you that it was tailor
made for him. I fought very hard.

512
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:47.320
I want to say. Originally they
were trying to cajole Morgan Freeman to

513
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:53.840
play the role. And I love
Morgan Freeman. In fact, I met

514
00:37:53.880 --> 00:38:00.440
with Morgan Freeman on sixteen Blocks when
we were going to make the most death

515
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:06.880
character older and delightful. Man is
super smart. But I just kept feeling

516
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.079
like, you know, he's coming
in for you know, a week,

517
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:14.519
and you know I've seen him come
in for a week, and I think

518
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:19.920
there's something more interestful. And I
suggested Jimmy Cohn. I didn't know what

519
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.880
how his health was, and it
wasn't great. Um. And I just

520
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:30.440
hung up yesterday with Pierce Brosnan,
who who saw the movie and loved it

521
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:37.599
and was so touched by the scenes
between them. He's he's, it's it's

522
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.119
I don't know. It's weirdly the
probably the perfect role for him at this

523
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.840
time, because he was telling Pierce
he goes he said I'm headed to the

524
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.920
dark side Pierce, and Pierce kept
saying, I think we should finish the

525
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:52.519
movie and have some tea, and
you know, you know all the stuff.

526
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:58.760
But he knew and yet that's part
of the character. That part of

527
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.239
the character he had samentha and and
and um, you know, it was

528
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:07.679
a almost a father son relationship.
Even though that Pierce was older, it

529
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:13.440
was he was his like father figure. And um, he was so kind

530
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:16.960
to a man who didn't remember that
or that. So he's he's just you're

531
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:22.280
gonna love it. You're gonna love
seeing him in that movie. Um uh.

532
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.039
It isn't one of those parts that
you go, oh, you know,

533
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:29.960
it's one of those parts of Wow, I wish I wish he's still

534
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.320
here. I wish he could do
some more. That's great, man,

535
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:36.679
I mean you really that's cool.
Like you made his That's what he wanted.

536
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.000
I mean explicitly said, he's like, before I die, I just

537
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.079
want to do one more. I
really get to act. So I'm so

538
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:45.280
glad you know you're able to do
that for him. It's great. Yeah,

539
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:49.360
yeah, it was wonderful to watch
him and it's just fantastic. Richard.

540
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:50.920
I don't want to take up any
more your time, man, I

541
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:53.320
really really appreciate it. That is
the show for today. I don't need

542
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:58.039
to tell anybody that Equalija three's coming
out. I'm sure people will be aware

543
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.719
of it of So yeah, thank
you so much for coming on the show.

544
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:04.199
And that is the podcast for today. Thank you for having me.

545
00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:16.000
M m m h, m hm
m h, m hm m m h